Talk Me Into/Out of Ciener Conversion from .223 to .22?

[Too Many Choices!?]

I know this has been hashed out before but a search just left me more ... So here I sit, ready to pay almost $200 for the kit and a single 30 round .22 magazine. Normally I am an impulse buyer and I was 5 seconds away from buying this on the spot when better sense prevailed ,and I came for advice. I faintly remember some issue brought up with the gas system possibly becoming excessively fouled? Is this true or another internet myth about the AR/gas impengement? First-hand knowlege of the Ciener's reliability, or lack there of, would be greatly appreciated. I don't think this is a major issue with a chrome-lined barrel and chamber ,but is fouling of the bore worse with .22(read as: harder to clean)?I was planing on buying a 10/22 and then boycotting the rest of Ruger's products, but with this idea I get an auto .22 which I want for cheap shooting fun,AND to use it out of one of my favorite platforms . I know there will be afew in the crowd that say go the dedicated .22 upper route, but I don't have ~$500 to spend if I want to pay my bills and shoot as much as I am used to . If I do get the conversion kit I will be able to shoot in my backyard in .22 for fun without bothering the neighbors so much. .22 cal. plinking reactive targets in the yard is bound to be more fun than just paper punching other calibers at the shooting range, since I limit my centerfire rifle plinking to weekends, to keep the peace . So what say you THR members? To kit or not to kit, that is the question ?

PS: This would go into my Bushmaster M4A3 with 1/9 twist
and my 10 1/2" AR pistol also 1/9 twist. Is that twist rate adequate for .22lr?

 

[jefnvk]

I keep thinking about it. DPMS has a kit for $110 or so. It would be much cheaper to shoot my AR, which is always good.

Then again, I think a dedicated upper would give better accuracy.

 

[swingset]

You said talk you out of it, so I will.

It won't be as accurate as a dedicated upper. Bore is too big, twist is too fast, and over time you could lead-foul the gasport and degrade the .223 performance.

And, Jonathan Arthur Ceiner is universally known as the most short-tempered, arrogant and beligerant operator of any gun business. Service, if it's required, will be fun to say the least.

 

[Coronach]

I debated and debated this very issue. I went with a dedicated upper. yes it is more expensive, but it will be:

1. More accruate

2. More reliable

3. Easier to clean

4. Able to offer product-support convenience in the event something doesn't work right, since I'll have one person to deal with, as opposed to two (maker of upper and maker of conversion kit). Best of all, that person will not be Ceiner.

Mike

 

[geekWithA.45]

FWIW, I hardly ever use mine.

Hate cleaning all the .22 gunschmutz out of my upper.

 

[Jim Watson]

I have a Colt conversion that is functional but not very accurate in the .224" barrel. OK if you are doing CQB drills or some such.

A friend has a big league (Frank White) dedicated LR upper that shoots like the proverbial house afire. Of course they cost from $400 and up; amost $1000 for one like his fully simulating a NM AR in handling and accuracy. When I recover from my present AR project I will look for someone to convert my conversion into a true LR upper.

 

[Too Many Choices!?]

Ok, looks like I want this pretty bad so here are my major issues to talk me out of.

At this time I can't justify spending $500 just for a plinker since after I finished my MP-AR, I said I could not make another $200+ gun purchase(accessories either) this year , and if I did it would DAMN sure not be a $500 .22lr firearm(it would be an FN FAL, M1A/M14, another AK,a Sig pistol, or something else in .308, AR10 maybe as they are getting good reviews ).

My purchase list for before Christmas already has me spending just under $200 for a good(but inexpensive) .22 auto pistol, and just under $200 for some other "must have" AR goodies. As it stands, I really want a .22 plinker, especially one in carbine format. I know the positives of the Dedicated Upper, but I would like to hear more about the defficiencies of the conversion kit.For the price it seems like I could deal with them. Will shooting a little bit of .22lr in my 10 1/2" pistol, followed by some of the high velocity .223/5.56,"Blow Out", or " Blast Out" the lead fouling in the gas tube/port, or how hard is it to get at the gas port to de-foul? I worry a little about using the different .22 ammo, as it was a change in powder that caused major havok with the early M16A1, no? But then I also think that modern powders are less prone to cause such a malf(650rnds of Wolf Laquer didn't stop it, a little or a lot of .22 shouldn't :scrutiny):. Cleaning the bore, should be no chore, with chrome and good solvents(should defoul the gas port too) . So that leaves the Dedicated Upper with only a few small advantages; accuracy(not really a small advantage), reliability(product-support), and a negative for price tag. So for informal plinking am I really giving up that much? Especially when I can simply use the kit in my MP-AR for a few thousand rounds to see what it does to reliablility of .223. Since I built the pistol for about the cost of a dedicated upper, and I can replace a fouled gas tube/clean a fouled gas port (arguably for less than $500 dollars) that leaves the two advantages of accuracy/product-support, for the Dedicated Upper. But .22 is not a high velocity round, and I would wager unless Ceiner is completely daft, it would not require too much R & D to create a unit that would reliably handle 1000's upon 1000's of the nat-sized, little bitty, .22lr round. Accuracy would be acceptable for the purpose of 50-80yrd informal plinking,no?... As you can see, I need to be saved from myself, as I am almost sold .

 

[Coronach]

I'd just hold off until the money is there for an upper. From what I've read, many people who have the conversion kit thought that the cleaning was no big deal before they bought the kit, and afterwards thought it was a major enough PITA that they wished they have saved up and bought the upper.

I paid close to $400 for mine, so I'm sure you can find some for that price range or less if you hunt around.

Mike

 

[Beren]

I may be a black kettle for saying this after my post about 9mm AR's, but I have a Marlin 60SS that I love, and she does me fine and quiet when I want to have some inexpensive but quality trigger time.

It may be worth considering a dedicated .22LR rifle instead of an AR upper. I've seen the Marlin 60SS's for as low as $185 used.

Save the other $200 towards a carbine class? (Again, I have no room to talk.)

http://www.gunshopfinder.com/marlin/marlin60SS.asp

 

[Coronach]

I have a Ruger 10/22 that I intend to scope and equip with a good trigger. That will be my practice "sniper" rifle (and should also be pretty good for squirrel control when I get my place in the country). The .22 upper for my AR will retain iron sights and be used as my practice tacticool rifle.

Mike

 

[444]

Personally, I wouldn't do it.
#1) (This has been sort of mentioned), the bore of an AR15 is not the correct size for a .22 LR. It is larger. People report varying degrees of success using an oversized AR barrel: I guess it depends on what you consider acceptable accuracy.
#2) IMO, it is too expensive for something that is half baked. I could see if a dedicated upper was $600 and a conversion kit was $50. Ok, then the savings is huge and I am willing to put up with mediocre performance. But for hundreds of dollars, I am going to go ahead and wait until I can afford what I really want and what really works rather than pissing away a few hundred on something that is a serious compromise.

One thing the conversion kit does have going for it is that you need a conversion kit to make a dedicated .22LR upper work. So, you could buy the conversion with plans to later buy the upper and kind of split up the cost.



I am amazed when I read about someone that doesn't own a .22 rifle. I am not sure how old I was when I got my first one, but it was a single digit (my age). I have almost always owned several .22 rifles. I probably have 10 right now. Obviously, I would buy a .22 rifle if I didn't have one. And I mean right away. If I didn't own a .22 rifle, I would own one before noon tomorrow.

 

[Coronach]

Not all of the .22 uppers are set up that way, 444. The Bushmaster and DPMS uppers are complete- there's no need to buy anything besides ammo to make it run (well, a lower, too, but I'm assuming one has that already ). You're right, though. He could figure out what conversion kits are out there and what uppers are designed to run them, and just get the conversion kit now and maybe buy the upper later.

For me, though, that just seems like a customer service nightmare:

Conversion Kit Guy: Your upper is out of spec.

Upper Guy: Your conversion kit is a POS.

Both: Maybe your lower is goofy?

Don't know how often that sort of thing happens, but I suppose it could. And if one of the guys involved is Ceiner, from all that I read you could be in for a fun time.

Mike

 

[Beren]

If you want an evil looking .22LR, check out this from SOG:

http://www.southernohiogun.com/akmt22stpop.html

It's a trainer AK chambered in .22LR. $280.

 

[CB900F]

Too Many;

Do you enjoy dropping bowling balls on your foot? If so, buy the conversion for a significant fraction of the cost of a dedicated upper. You'll be in masochist heaven.

Or, do as has been suggested & get the rimfire plinker gun of your choice, the 10/22 would be my recommendation.

900F

 

[GunGoBoom]

Just get a Marlin model 60, $110 - can't be beat. Or the detachable clip mag version if you prefer - the 7000/795/70PSS. Forget the non-dedicated conversion for AR - it's the wrong bore size, and therefore not a rifle in my book - more closely resembling a smoothbore musket.

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/index.php

 

[Zundfolge]

I would cool the impulse a bit and keep saving for a dedicated upper ... I've read several threads in this and other forums by people who buy the Ciener kits and it always seems like they end up buying a dedicated upper anyway.


Here's one for $339 so I'm sure if you keep looking you'll find one at a good price (for darn sure it will be cheaper then buying the Ciener and then buying a dedicated upper in a year )

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=35563283


edit ... here's another for $299
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=6869687

 

[Too Many Choices!?]

Thanks for talking me down from that legde guys...

I feel now...For now, the Ceiner issue is on hold pending further "hands on" investigation. While the," other AR goodies", listed in the opening post, have come to the front. I have decided to spend this $200 dollars to get the Surefire Four Rail NON-Free-Floated handguard for my M4gery instead . It is supposed to be ablet to,"retain zero", if you mount it correctly, and requires only allen wrenches with no need to cut of the delta ring to install . I will be able to move my Scorpion light, from the M4 to my AR pistol which has a Fobus m44 handguard, with no problems, and I can then forward mount my red-dot,as opposed to the High mount. I feel I don't need to free-float an H-BAR short distance defensive carbine(but if I had the money I bet that plus an ACOG wouldn't hurt anything lol). So thanks again guys, until furhter notice cooler heads have prevailed...

PS:And yes I actually did some Homework before purchasing the Surefire rail system. It was not an impulse buy

 

[taliv]

The claims about fouling of the bore or gas system are pure hokum. It's very easy to clean the .22 unit and the AR upper. A couple of blasts of brake Cleaner aerosol and some Q tip use is all that's needed, about once every 500 rds of 22. I do recommend that you fire a couple of 223's thru the gun, once every 300 or so rds of 22lr, however.

+1

The 223 bore is at most .001" larger than the .22lr bullet's OD. The soft lead 22 bullet easily "upsets" enough to handle that "problem". The Ciener .22 unit groups 2-3" at 50 yds, scoped and from the bench, using common high speed .22lr ammo. The better groups come with the older 1 in 12" rifling twist. The worse with 1 in 9" twist. I dunno about 1 in 7" rifling, but I imagine it would be worse for the .22 unit.

+1

There's no need of better accuracy for realistic foraging, or for combat practice. So the dedicated .22 upper is only for trying to practice for NRA Highpower matches, which makes little sense to me. You need to get out and learn to deal with wind and mirage, and 50 yd shooting of the 22lr (on scaled down targets) wont help you with that. Nor does the .22 have the recoil of the 223, and for the 200 yd stage of standing rapidfire in the NRA matches, you do have to learn a bit about the recoil and timing of the shot. The .22 is no help there, either.

+1


I buy 223 components in bulk and reload cheap enough that I practice with 223 instead of 22LR. the reason i got the Ciener, is that with a silencer for your AR, you can use it and shoot subsonic .22LR (like the supersniper 60g, which perform just fine on 1/8 twist barrels) and still use all the tacticool stuff you've got stuck on your 223 upper.

at 50 yrds, all the brands of subsonic 22lr i've tried shoot at the same point of impact as my regular 223 loads and they are whisper quiet. The ciener itself makes a whole lot less noise than the AR bolt, and it functions fine with subsonic ammo, unlike subsonic 223 (which i haven't personally tried yet) which turns your AR into a bolt-gun.

even so, i've got 3 friends who own cieners and they all practice with 22lr and haven't complained at all. in fact, the only complaint i'd ever heard prior to this thread was the price of the magazines.

 

[GunGoBoom]

Thanks for the contrary info, taliv - I was speaking from hearsay, but you're speaking from BTDT experience; thanks.

Hmmm, will a carbon 15 .22 upper fit a standard AR lower?

 

[Coronach]

AFAIK, yes.

 

[taliv]

i reread this thread today and want to temper my pro-ciener comments somewhat. My experience with the product has been nothing but positive, so I haven't had the pleasure of interacting with Mr. Ciener for support. I was unaware of his reputation. I'm a big fan of friendly customer service (my bung is still puckered from reading the bearcoat thread last year ) So if I had it to do over again, I'd probably follow Coronach's advice.

 

[Steve Smith]

I won't comment on the Ceiner conversions but I will say that what has been said re: dedicated uppers "not" being good for Highpower practice is balogna (baloney? lol) Most anyone in the Master class or higher will agree that it is HIGHLY beneficial and they will tell you that they either use one or wish they had one to use. Without a solid position, all the practice in the "real world" will not do you a bit of good.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Get yourself a dedicated upper. Keuhl makes one as does several other firms (CZ, DPMS). My Keuhl takes a modified Ceiner.

 

[ElChupacabra]

I've ordered 4 of Kuehl's uppers and tweaked Ciener conversions. He got out of the business because of the cheap conversions from Bushmaster and DPMS, but his was/is the only conversion on the market with a greater than 30rd capacity. Everyone I know who has an M16 or an AC556 (full auto Mini 14) has a Ciener kit and use it all the time. He did another run due to popular demand. That run is being fullfilled right now, and he has just announced another 100 unit run. You can get one at http://www.kuehlprecisionfirearms.com/ I'd have zero interest for the Bushy or DPMS 10rd conversion.

 

[gvnwst]

My 2 cents (or more than that) is that a dedicated .22 upper is the best.
Jim watson said that a NM like .22 upper would be a thousand dollars. Not so. Accuracy Speaks offers a $450 NM upper. Extremely good. Also you have probably herd that a .22 upper would not be good pratice. Not so again. Just Learning to shoot offhand is time consuming and uses a lot of ammo, so might as well make it cheap, right? As to recoil being not hte same, most NM ARs are weighted and so recoil will be about the same.

Here is a list of companies that offer .22lr uppers.


Model “1” Sales
Bushmaster
Spike Tatical
Accuracy speaks
DPMS


Spikes tatical offers a lother walther barrel upgrade, Accuracy speaks uses Douglas Premium barrels, and model "1" Sales offers a stainless bull barrel.
All of these will be plenty accurate to practice offhand at 50yd. (and a little more than that)