Talk me out of buying a small base sizing die

[fguffey]

Turn the die in 1/4 (.017") turn after contact with the shell holder? And still, no ones measures to determines if the die made down to the shell holder when the ram is raised. Then there is turning the die down an additional 1/4 turn or .035” and still no contact between the shell holder and die.

I went to help a friend, I raised the ram, I adjusted the die to the shell holder, no luck, I lowered the die two full turns, the gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder was .017” on an AMMO MASTER press.
I made a comparator to measure new, unfired factor arsenal made ammo with his fired and sized cases, he did not like the results. He would not consider the case had more resistance to sizing than his press could overcome.

He had no interest in improving on the Imperial sizing wax or the Dillon in the can or bottle.

F. Guffey

 

[Swampman]

Talk me out of buying a small base sizing die

OK, let me try.

From the Dillon website:

"All Dillon rifle dies are small-based, with a carbide expander ball."

See it for yourself here:
http://m.dillonprecision.com/mcontent/p/98/catid/14/artid/311

I submit that if you're not talked out of buying a new set of small base dies at this point, you should really consider buying some of the special vintage air that I have for sale, we deliver it fresh daily via the wind and the price is very reasonable, now, exactly how MUCH money do you have...

 

[hentown]

I've loaded tens of thousands of rounds for ARs. Never had a jam yet. Can't imagine why you'd need a small base die, unless your AR is jamming, due to improperly-sized brass.

 

[savanahsdad]

ok.. maybe I should have picked different words in post #20,

dose your ammo work in your rifle, after you size and load it up ? if yes then . no you don't need small base dies , the point I was trying to make was if your ammo fits and works in your gun and you went and got smaller/tighter dies , your ammo would fit looser , stretching more when fired and squeezed back more than needed when reloaded "working the brass"



and I guess we would need to witch one you fall under

RELOADER = someone that loads up a bunch of reloads to shoot in a bunch of guns ,

or..

HANDLOADER = someone that handloads for one gun with the goal of making the best ammo he can, that fits that one gun the best the Handloader can


I'm a reloader for 9mm and a Handloader for all other cals...




.

 

[cfullgraf]

Can't imagine why you'd need a small base die,

I could not imagine it either until I got two 223 Remington ARs that would not accept cases fired in other rifles and then resized in a standard resize die.

There must be some need if Redding, RCBS and especially Dillon offer small base resizing dies.

 

[savanahsdad]

No, it's the other way around. To make a regular die work you often have to push the die in all the way in, plus a quarter turn. Backing them out to bump the shoulder less leaves the case even bigger around, and increases the chance for hard bolt closure. (that's one of the reasons besides squibs and dbl loads, where "reloads" got a bad name.)

On the other hand if you have a small-base die, you start out smaller, so if you need to bump the shoulder less you can and still have the base area small enough to close nearly all bolts safely into battery. I'm pretty sure Dillon figured that out a long time ago, and thus cut all their sizers smaller to work in all rifles not just bolt actions....with a minimum of case working.

If RCBS can be faulted in this area, its because they chose to make small-based dies, (including the newest latest whiz bang AR die sets including taper crimpers (also a good idea)), separately, as a marketing decision to sell more dies. And why not? You can size minimally if you have a rifle that allows it. So then you can have separate dies for bolt action hunters , and AR's.....or you can buy one, a small-based die and get by pretty fair with either.

I still maintain, that the best reason to use small-based dies is if you want to load a storage room full of ammo, and want to end up with ammo that will shoot in any gun of that caliber, NOT just the gun you had when you reloaded it.....that got stolen or traded! (the only other way to be sure, is to save your pennies and fill it with factory).

Think about it....the two most serious reasons a smart buyer chooses NOT to buy reloads at a gun show (or an estate sale): 1. No first hand knowledge of the type and amount of propellant in each case. and 2. No first hand knowledge that it will load in your rifle....even if the seller assures you the regular sizers were set to "cam over!"



Of course, but neither small-based sizers nor regular sizers size that low. The "base" they are referring to is the base of the die where sizing actually starts, not the case, not the shell holder, but the bottom of the sizer .

The damaged machine gun brass you are referring to is best bought cheap enough to recycle.......or not at all.....of course unless you are jmorris with the tools and skill to machine it back.

first off I have never pushed a "DIE IN".. the case goes in the die . (maybe a mis type on your part) and all the way in is all the way in ,another 1/4 turn will not make the case go more than all the way in , it may even keep my Pacific from camming over ,, and to get the full use out of small base dies you need to run the case all the way in .and push the shoulder back. if you were trying to point out that you can use a small base die the same way as a FLD , you are right , but if you back it off you will no longer be seizing the base all the way . so yes you could use a small base die for all your loading , but why?..

as for over working the brass .. click on the link on post #4

and this is the first time I've heard "pushing the shoulder back makes the case bigger around " ? my Redding and Lee dies support the case full length that's is why there called FLD's (there is some pictures of this on the above link as well.)

reloads at gun shows , not here , you need a manufacture license to sell reloads , it's the law, and our gun shows are all on the up and up , at least any I have gone to.

 

[GW Staar]

first off I have never pushed a "DIE IN".. the case goes in the die . (maybe a mis type on your part) and all the way in is all the way in ,another 1/4 turn will not make the case go more than all the way in , it may even keep my Pacific from camming over ,, and to get the full use out of small base dies you need to run the case all the way in .and push the shoulder back. if you were trying to point out that you can use a small base die the same way as a FLD , you are right , but if you back it off you will no longer be seizing the base all the way . so yes you could use a small base die for all your loading , but why?..

Okay you got me on two typos and maybe the second should have been reworded as well, sigh, never said I was perfect. ....die should have read case....and 1/4 turn should have read 1/4" turn....which is just enough past touching the shellholder to the die to allow my Rock Chucker to cam over. Cam-over insures "all the way in" even for your Pacific.

as for over working the brass .. click on the link on post #4

Okay, clicked on it! it says "the downside is case life is really shortened especially compared to brass used in only one bolt action rifle, because the brass is worked more."

Well that's not a surprise. They are comparing apples and oranges...brass sized in a small-based die is usually for AR's or lever actions, not brass neck-sized and shot out of a single bolt action.

The extraction process out of an AR does more damage to brass (hurting brass life) than squeezing the area above the base a whole extra .001"....and a shooter isn't going to reload for an AR with a neck sizer. And the "hair" that the shoulder is bumped....???? As compared to what....regular dies often bump the shoulders too much.....further than .004" sometimes even .007" If a small based die bumps a "hair" maybe that hair is .004"....they didn't say. Neck sizing for a bolt gun for competition, isn't going to bump much at all........we wouldn't want to try that in an Semi, would we.

Again quoting from your quote: "The upside is you get precision handloads that should work flawlessly in your semiautomatic." That sounds like an endorsement to me.



and this is the first time I've heard "pushing the shoulder back makes the case bigger around " ?

Well you still haven't heard it.....I actually said, "Backing them out to bump the shoulder less leaves the case even bigger around, and increases the chance for hard bolt closure."


my Redding and Lee dies support the case full length that's is why there called FLD's (there is some pictures of this on the above link as well.)

Yes and so do RCBS regular and small-based dies, but people back them out a little (yes away from the shell holder) to bump the shoulders less....and when they do so they don't size as small at the base area.....same goes with your Reddings and Lees.

Backing off a die a few thousandths to bump the shoulder LESS will size the base less on any regular sizer or small based sizer.....but the .001" difference will most likely still exist between regular and small based sized brass.

reloads at gun shows , not here , you need a manufacture license to sell reloads , it's the law, and our gun shows are all on the up and up , at least any I have gone to.

Surely I'm not the only one who's seen reloads for sale at a gun show. Maybe they've closed the dangerous practice....good....but I've been going to gun shows for 40 years.

Hey, I'm not trying to do anything here more than point out that small-based dies have been misunderstood, and really have a legitimate purpose. That purpose is producing reliable ammo for semi-autos that can be shot in any gun chambered for that caliber......and that's only true with one other type of ammo.....factory.

 

[savanahsdad]

^^^^ there we go, now we seem to agree , and where you said leaves them bigger , I thought you meant makes them bigger , lol my bad !
and I never said small base dies didn't have a place , the first time I heard of them was years ago for Remington auto loaders in 243win and then in more resent years with AR10's and with some match grade barrels , much like neck only dies or shell holders of different heights , a tight die like Dillon or loose die like Lee, they all have there place , I do disagree with loading for a bunch of rifles as you said , I like to load for one gun , I have four 270win's and ammo for each, but that's like my Ford and your Dodge ,they both get us to the range ,

where you said with small base dies you can load for all your guns , I was thinking AR, plus a bolt ,a pump, ect , I know guys with a 308 AR10 and a 308 bolt guns , my only 308 is a brake action , so that may not work, but for the guy with a few AR's in the same cal, I'd agree with you , as for the OP sounds like the Dillon dies will/are working and if that is your only 308 AR I see no reason to change things

as a side note : for my AR15 in 25WSSM I made a small base only die , adds a step, but sizes all the way down to the shell holder and never touches the shoulder , I'll post a thread in the near future with the why and how , only on my 4th reload so far so good ,

.