Target Focusing Vrs. Front Sight press trigger - one man's view

[Al Thompson]

As mentioned in a previous thread, I wanted to try the Target Focus (aka Point Shooting ) method of engaging close targets.

Briefly (have to hit the rack for work soon), IMHO, one - it works, two - you have to practice.

Went to the range and actually managed to bring my timer and get in before the rain. Brought my 3 inch M65, my G19 and Kimber steel frame 1911.

Quick conclusion - at distances under 10 yards, the Target Focus method shaved about one second off my par times (six targets, six rounds) and 20 seconds off my first split (buzzer to first shot). Accracy suffered slightly, though good enough to make "9 inch pie plate" standards. When I moved closer with the kimber, accuracy was fine. For me, it seems to be about a 8 to 10 yard range where "FSPT" takes over. Under that distance, it's target foucus time.

Notes - my times with the wheel gun were not as drastic a difference as with the autos. IMHO, this should be attributed to lack of practice wth the round gun. My G19 was fired from the CARS position (high tuck) and only the kimber was fired from a holster. About 250 rounds were sent down range (50 .38, 100 9mm, 100 (+) .45) all with a timer and either steel plates or paper targets.

Still need to try this with a sightless gun and non-reactive targets.

I would invite anyone with a sense of fair play to try this and post your results.

 

[Ankeny]

I guess you are shooting a 6 plate rack at 10 yards? On a 10 yard plate rack I use the sights and I wouldn't even think about a target focus. Our racks have 8 inch plates and at 10 yards I can't hit them consistently without a sight picture. Besides, my plate rack experience is limited to events where no make up shots are alowed and a miss will kill your score.

Day in and day out I run the rack with my single stack without make up shots in 3.5 seconds pretty easily. If I want to chance a miss I run right around 3.25 seconds. My best run to date is 2.45 seconds.

With my 610 revolver my par time is 3.45 seconds but I get a lot of runs in the 2.80 - 3.0 second range. My best revolver run is 2.32 seconds.

All of these are from the holster, hands above shoulders. Seeng the sights clearly and calling each shot precisely is pretty important when shooting steel.

For a more fair comparison a couple of IDPA or IPSC targets at CQB distances might be appropriate.

 

[Al Thompson]

Actually, it was 8 inch plates, rack of six. I quit keeping times as I wanted to shoot.

I will cheerfully state that you are a much faster man than I.

Apparently, it takes me about a second to simply raise my arms and fire after the buzzer. My best first shot times from the holster at a cardboard target (5 yards) was in the 1.5 second range. Par was probably 1.75 or so from the interview position.

On the plates from a low tuck or high tuck, first shot times ran about 1.10. Total for the six shots was about 4.0 or so.

 

[Ankeny]

My times in comparison to yours really means nothing. As you pointed out, what is important is which method works the best for you. Look at D.R. Middlebrooks and Daniel Horner. Both are Fist Fire gurus and both of them are faster than I am. Then there is Jerry Miculek, he would smoke all of us using a freaking revolver.

 

[Al Thompson]

Not to mention, that Munden character.

I watched him (in person) when I was 16 or so and he just isn't wired the same way we are.

I do plan more "research" D) soon, so stay tuned.

Al

My times in comparison to yours really means nothing. As you pointed out, what is important is which method works the best for you. Look at D.R. Middlebrooks and Daniel Horner. Both are Fist Fire gurus and both of them are faster than I am. Then there is Jerry Miculek, he would smoke all of us using a freaking revolver.

 

[1911Tuner]

Point!

Al...Ya know what I'm thinkin'? You're not that far from me...and the range that I use is even closer to ya by 40 miles...It's right off I-85. We could hook up early one mornin' and have us a fine shoot, and you can see my technique for
Draw-Point-Shoot and see what ya think. It's a little different than the accepted,
but it works well for me...but it takes a LOTTA practice to pull it off...and a pistol
with a heavier trigger than you're probably used to.

Sound like a plan?

Standin' by...

 

[Ankeny]

If I wasn't clear across the country I would take you up on it. Never skip out on the opportunity to learn something new.

 

[okjoe]

Here's most of a post I put up on anothert thread on Point Shooting.

Point Shooting and/or P&S is almost brain dead simple and as such, can be learned (at your own risk and expense of course), by most regular folks and with little or no practice.

It is good from very close quarters to the practical handgun fighting distance of around 25 feet. That distance should also take care of most in home situations unless you own a mansion.

Just look at your targets. They will tell you if it works for you.

As with most things, practice will improve performance.

Edited 11/15 to remove some added info that was not needed.

 

[Island Beretta]

Al: For me up until some 'feel' training I was effective only up to about 5 yds. COM hit, I don't need to see anything but the target, after that my accuracy gets spotty.

Once however I learnt to use feel to bring the gun up on target (intersecting the eye line) then most of the time now my front sight is in the rear sight notch when I bring it up (body aligns) and I know I could do PS now up to 15 yds. for a target standing in front that is stationary. However it doesn't take me any longer to see the sights now than not to see it so I just verify with my eyes anyway- can't hurt.

Okjoe: Agree, my only comment is we need more 'tools' in the toolbox esp. since we do not know what form an assault may take.

Statistics is all good and well to quote but I might be the 1 in a million that a threat engages from a roof at 30 yds. in an open courtyard.

..and to summarise (2nd time since morning) I think everyone agrees with the benefits of PSing but some are saying they don't trust it and for some people their skill level is such that past 'x' metres they can't hit Jack shooting that way. This is normal in life, some people don't trust guns, cars, food, medicine etc. that others swear by!!

 

[The Rabbi]

I began practicing point shooting, lifting the gun up to eye level and pointing it, just like Fairbairn writes.
What I found was that up to a certain distance it was dead on or close enough anyway. But at farther distances it didnt really matter: the sights were already aligned or very close to aligned with my eye anyway so it took just a split second to re-align properly and make the shot.
I think using the sights is often pushed because it can be replicated and quanitifed. If someone misses, his sight picture was off one way or another. BUt using PS is harder to diagnose why someone missed.
I also think PS requires a gun that fits, points, very well. My Model 1917 Smith does that for me. My Model 19 seems to point consistently to the left.

 

[okjoe]

Why Point Shoot???

Check out the SOP 9 data re what shooting method is used and which isn't in CQB situations:
http://www.pointwshooting.com/sop9.htm

Check out Darren Laur's paper on Fear and how it relates to Survival Skills Training: http://www.pointshooting.com/laur.htm

Given the recognized police accuracy rate in gunfights of < 20%, IMHO, it makes sense to at least learn and practice Point Shooting as a basic survival shooting skill for CQ use.

Just pointing a gun at a target and blasting away is not Point Shooting. If that's all there was to it, all the crooks would be in hospital or dead.

If you practice malfunction drills and speed reloading just in case you may need to use those skills in rare situations, you might want to spend some time learning to Point Shoot since the data show that you will probably revert to instinctive shooting in a CQ combat situation around 75% of the time. And you will shoot one handed to boot.

Better to know how to do it and not need it, rather than to need it and not know how to do it.

This takes nothing away from Sight Shooting.

 

[Teufelhunden]

One of the hardest things to try to figure out mid-stress is the range at which you are comfortable carrying on with point-shooting. In my experience, it comes down to training. Using Dave McCracken's acronym, BA/UU/R: Buy Ammo, Use Up, Repeat.

I've also found that you will sooner than later come to the subliminal realization of what your abilities are, and what you are physically comfortable with. Putting yourself under a time restraint will show this to you. For example, I had to shoot a shotgun qual today with a department armory issue Mossberg 590. We were taught underhand combat reloads, overhand combat reloads, and the 'chickenwing' combat reload. At one point, we had a 5 round string where we started with an empty gun and had to execute all of our shots using one of the aforementioned techniques. I never decided which of the reloads was best for me before the string of fire and just let my mind/body decide what was more comfortable for me--it ended up being the overhand reload, and it was executed without delay or fumbling.

My point is this: You body will recognize its own limits as to what you can accomplish in a given amount of time and what it feels most comfortable doing.. Once you see what your body wants to do, explore that option before you start forcing yourself to do something that you have to think about instead of simply doing. Thinking slows you down. I have come to the realization that I won't point shoot at a target more than 10 yards away, slingshoting the slide back into battery on a reload works better than hitting the slide-stop, and an overhand combat reload works. All of these things are accomplished during a string of fire unconsciously--I only realise I've done them once I reflect back; during the event, they simply happen.

Try to get to the point where you simply do, you don't think. Firearms Zen.

-Teuf

 

[Al Thompson]

Good post Teuf. Sort of like typing or playing a musical instrument - helps to get to the point where you can "will" the results, not have to think about the technique.

Dropped another hundred rounds or so on the steel last night. I shoot my Glock or steel framed 1911 much better than my aluminum framed 1911.