Tasers and legalities of use

[jad0110]

I'm a little puzzled by something and request your thoughts.

My wife is considering either a taser or OC spray for home protection. She has a near vitriolic hatred of guns, so that isn't an option :banghead:. Even if she didn't hate guns, she has an extreme fear of going to prison if she ever ended up killing an intruder (God forbid it ever comes to that), even though we live in a state with a strong Castle Doctrine law. To sum up her position, I think she'd rather be carried by 6 than judged by 12 .

Which means this probably rules out the Taser option for her. It is well known that 300 to 500 people have died in the last 10 years from stun guns and tasers.

So my question regards the use of lethal force, wherein 3 conditions must usually be present: ability, opportunity and motive (I know, this doesn't apply under my state's CD, I'm just curious). How is taser use treated? I know with OC spray, the legal threshold for using it is much lower, but what about a device that is often marketed as "non lethal" but has in fact resulted in many well documented fatalities? Which standards apply? If I were to rely on a taser, I'd personally assume that the same legal requirements would apply as using a firearm.

Thank you for any light that can be shed on this. At this point, I'll probably recommend that she stick to OC spray for home use, which she can also legally carry in her purse (the same isn't true of a stun gun or taser in my state) to simply things.

 

[Bighouse Doc]

http://www.a-human-right.com/s_foam.jpg

-Doc

 

[Rail Driver]

I'd ask her what she plans to do when her taser runs out of juice before the cops show up to cart off the bad guy.

Just wondering, you know.

Start reading or showing her reports from http://gunssavelives.net ... there are daily reports from all over the country (including, I'm sure, your area) of people that use firearms in self defense in and out of the home without going to jail.

She seems to be suffering from something I call "Newyorkcaliforniajerseychitownmassitis" ... the mistaken belief that guns are somehow wrong or evil, and that self defense is wrong.

 

[Steve Raacke]

First, I own a Taser model C2. This is the civilian model that Taser sells via the web or stores such as Acadamy, Bass Pro, Cabelas and various gun stores. The prices start around $300. http://store.taser.com/taser-c2-p116.aspx
As for the deaths involved with Taser use, Taser has a link to some of the research supporting their side of the arguement here-> http://www.taser.com/research-and-safety/science-and-medical
If you buy the C2 you will still have to spend another Ten dollars to Taser to pay for a criminal background check. After they verify that you are not a felon they will give you a code to activate your C2. Until then it's a paperweight.
So you are looking at > $300 plus a background check so Taser can cover it's A$$. You now have a computer chip controled electronic device to save your butt when you absolutely need it to work. Guess what. Sometimes they don't work. Taser recommends you perform a "spark check" regularly. That is, take the firing cartrige out and press the trigger to test it. I've had my C2 fail to spark once and sent it back to Taser. They replaced it, no questions asked. I posted about it on Facebook and a Security company owner stated that he had bought 5 C2 models and 3 of them had failed in the past. Taser replace all three but still,.... A Baton Rouge Police Officer I know tells me that even their LE only model X26 sometimes fail spark tests. He tests his X26 at least once a week.
OK, $300 for a C2 Taser which may or may not work or about $15 for a 2 ounce canister of Freeze +P CS/OC from the local police supply store.
I have the Taser as a backup to my Freeze and a less than lethal option to my EDC pistol. Is it perfect? No. But it's an option I enjoy having should I choose to use it.
I hope this helps.
Steve

 

[and103]

First of all, civilian model tasers are the same thing as law enforcement tasers except for the "c" in the model name, and that they last for 30 seconds instead of 5.

A taser is a concealed weapon, and OC spray is not. If she is going to carry OC spray, I highly suggest that she experiences what it is like to be contaminated with it because it WILL get on you when you spray it.

As far as taser deaths, most of them occur from druggies that are in excited delirium, or a drug that greatly increases the heart rate. The probes have been shown to be right next to the heart too, and the heart cannot take the rush and that is the main cause of death.

As for legal guidelines, if someone is coming for you, do what you have to do. They are pretty lax about the law with the use of the taser. Law enforcement can use it when somebody is actively resisting arrest. If the suspect happened to die if your wife deployed the taser (very small chance) then she should be covered if she was in the right to deploy the taser.

Also, I recommend spark testing it ever day.

 

[Steve in PA]

As a LEO TASER instructor, an ECD is supposed to be spark tested at least once a day, not once a week.

If ECD's were instruments of death, LEO's who "ride the lightning" during certifications would be dropping like flies.

 

[Jim K]

I neither own nor sell Tasers but I always considered a Taser not as an alternative to strongarm force or pepper spray but as an alternative to a .40 slug, center of mass. In other words, IMHO the Taser is a potentially lethal weapon that is a downward alternative to a gun, not a friendly reminder that is a step up from a nasty look.

Jim

 

[Shadow 7D]

Kids, sorry that's about your only opening
that and NON violent tactics,

have a real discussion, and sometimes you end up like my wife, she's neutral now, but has a 'yeah I guess I'll die' attitude. Threaten one of the kids, and she'll tear your head off.

 

[jad0110]

Thank you for all the replies. Sounds like I may have been overthinking the legal side a bit. I did see that tasers are legally classified as "non lethal", though deaths do occur. I know that death from a Taser is very, very remote, but it does happen. So if my wife does not want her actions to result in her assailant's death, I'll probably recommend that she stick to pepper spray. Plus is sounds like Tasers aren't exactly a reliable alternative to stake your life on, and I don't think she'll want to be bothered with testing it every day. Pepper spray probably isn't the best either (I will advise her to test it outside on a breezy day, with the idea that some of it may end up on her), but what else are you going to do if you are like her and you hate guns? I suppose pepper spray is better than your bare hands when you are only 5', 100 - 110 lbs and have significant neck and upper back pain.

She seems to be suffering from something I call "Newyorkcaliforniajerseychitownmassitis" ... the mistaken belief that guns are somehow wrong or evil, and that self defense is wrong.

Yes, she does believe that guns are wrong, but not necessarily evil (though she does think they are stupid, that's one of her favorite things to spit out when she goes on a tyrade ... "Guns are sooo stupid!!!".) Also, she does not believe SD is wrong. I guess she'd rather have a little can of OC spray to use on an attacker than a .357 Magnum.

I think a big part of the problem is that she is, deep down inside, a frightened little girl and guns remind her that their is evil in the world ... and she'd honestly just prefer to bury her head in the sand. She's a big fan of the snooze button (she ranks it right up there with the "mute" button), if that tells you anything. She does not even like the idea of having a Taser or pepper spray all that much, yesterday she took a step back, feeling rather uncomfortable with the thought of having either.

Needless to say, along the lines of what Shadow states, I tend to be very discrete and judicious in my talks with her. The timing has to be perfect, or I'll just make things worse. The latest incident with the single mom in Oklahoma opened the door to at least consider something like pepper spray.

Who knows, in 50 years she may even consider having a sling shot.

 

[ns66]

just ask her if someone kick open the door with guns, while she and maybe her kids inside, what will she do?

 

[AlaskaMan]

How about upgrading the deadbolts on all the exterior doors? Get rid of the hollow core interior door and replace them with solid core doors.

If you can stand the hoakey advertisement here's a possible solution for strengthening the doors...

http://www.armorconcepts.com/Our-Solutions/EZ-Armor

Maybe not the best solution but one she will likely not protest. Plus it makes you look like the concerned and loving spouse when you do the work yourself!

Happy wife=happy life

 

[Jim K]

I don't think it would work in every case, but an acquaintance dealt with an anti-gun wife something like this:

He: I don't blame you for not wanting a gun, women are no good with guns anyway.
She: What do you mean "women are no good with guns"?
He: It is obvious to me. Most women can't shoot and could never handle a gun.
She: Women are cops and soldiers, what do you mean they can't handle guns?
He: Sure, but I mean ordinary women like you; you couldn't hit anything with a gun.
She: Who says? I bet I could shoot good if I wanted to.
He: You're kidding. You would probably drop the gun and run away the first shot.
She: Oh, yeah, well the next time you take your stupid guns to the stupid range, I want
to go along!
He: OK, but don't say I didn't warn you.

So he got his old .22/32 Kit Gun and they went to the range. Six months later, she can outshoot him, and just got her CCW license.

Big mistake: Starting a beginner off with a .44, .357, or even a 9mm. .22 is best but in a gun the newbie can hit something with, not a tiny vest pocket pistol.

Jim

 

[jad0110]

just ask her if someone kick open the door with guns, while she and maybe her kids inside, what will she do?

I think I asked her something like this a few years ago, and her response was something along the lines of that no one will break in because we live in a good neighborhood . Never mind the fact that there was 2 or 3 break-ins years ago before we moved into the area. So, use of logic does not seem to work.

How about upgrading the deadbolts on all the exterior doors? Get rid of the hollow core interior door and replace them with solid core doors.

Just upgraded the locks about 6 months ago. The solid core door idea does sound like a good option, particularly for my son's room and ours. But she can't stand sleeping with our bedroom door locked at night, so I guess that solution isn't practical. :banghead:

The steel plates do look like an interesting possibility for the exterior doors, I'll have to research that more. Thanks!

Jim,

I do like that approach. She has been out shooting with me 3 times in 5 years (she fired .22s the first 2 times, and declined to shoot the last time). The first time, she hated it (the range was busy that day). The second time I actually caught a grin on her face when she blew a computer CD to bits with a Ruger MK II (went out to a friend's land), although later in the session she became rather tense (physical tightness in her neck) with the experience. So I think she let her gaurd down briefly and allowed herself to have a bit of fun before snapping back to her normal, gun hating self.

Oh well. I would love to be "shooting partners" with my wife, but I'm not going to cram it down her throat.

 

[jad0110]

Ok, I did talk to my wife and she does agree that a taser/stun gun simply isn't a good option for her. So we'll definitely be going the OC route.

Strangely, she expressed interest in having either a baseball bat or golf club. I informed her that these WOULD be considered deadly weapons as they can easily inflict death, far, far more so than a taser could (by accident). She replied that she could just "hit them in the legs" . Looks like we have some conversations ahead of us.

I did learn, for the first time, that one reason why she doesn't want to use a gun (in addition to her disklike for them) is that their operation is a mystery to her. I advised that we could fix that, but if that she isn't willing to learn due to her disklike of them, there would be no point.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Sorry, you need a female defensive instructor
the instructor needs to show just how poorly her choices are, by fighting from the submissive (or just pulling a gun/knife)

and then you walk around her and take the baby, while the instructor now goes into 'hostage bargaining' mode.

maybe she'll get it, see, you are going to REALLY have to piss her off, she has a MENTAL BLOCK (remember De Nile ain't just a river in egypt) and WON'T consider what happens past the platitude. Something has to give, and if this guy didn't scare her, I don't know what may.

Also, explain that as an adult who has made the choices she has, you are happy that she is willing to give up her life for the baby's, but, your priority is the children and you WILL NOT protect her if she won't protect herself.

 

[Shadow 7D]

I did learn, for the first time, that one reason why she doesn't want to use a gun (in addition to her disklike for them) is that their operation is a mystery to her. I advised that we could fix that, but if that she isn't willing to learn due to her disklike of them, there would be no point.

Safety
she needs to know how to unload, safe, and clear (and check that it's clear, unloaded with no round in the chamber) due to the fact that guns are around, your friends have guns and she may need to safe one that is accessible to children (once again, use the anti's line, "it's for the children")

If she flys off her rocker, well tell her stuff happens and she can chew you out afterwards BUT SHE HAD BETTER RENDER THE GUN SAFE IN THE MEAN TIME.

 

[gamestalker]

I think Shadow7D is right on track! She needs a wake up call from a trained professional.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink! This was my Dad's favorite little quip, but it is so true. She needs to either accept the risks associated with defending herself, or accept the increasing risk of becoming a victim. I grew up in a no gun family, but my own personal feelings were simply my own, and much different than those of my siblings and parents.

There is little anyone can do to change her perspective. Not everyone is willing to take responsibility for their own safety and welfare. I have carried a side arm everyday for nearly 50 years. For me it's like putting my shoes on, but we aren't all wired the same. I don't shove my views down the throats of those who choose not to defend their selves. But it's so sad to see a law abiding individual who fears their own Government, more than the criminal threat lurking in our socieity. I'll face being judged by 12, over being carried by 6, any day!


"When seconds count, the police are only minutes away"

 

[brickeyee]

Is the use of a Taser even legal for private citizens in Florida?

They are also not 100% effective.

One barb can miss, a barb can fall out, etc.

And as you note, there is still some question if they are non-lethal or only less lethal.

OC is not always 100% effective either.

If she is really not willing to take the chance on killing someone in self defense she may just have to take what is dished out.

 

[jad0110]

Mods,

I'd like to offer my apologizies. Though I started my thread on track with the Legal forum rules, I seem to have hijacked my own thread. If required, please move this thread to the appropriate forum.

maybe she'll get it, see, you are going to REALLY have to piss her off, she has a MENTAL BLOCK

Well, pissing her off isn't hard at all. Trust me. I know. And I've learned that getting her irritated is highly counter productive. She's like a chinese finger trap: the harder you pull, the more stuck you are. The more pissed she gets, the harder she digs in her heels. At least she admits she is stubborn as a mule.

I think Shadow7D is right on track! She needs a wake up call from a trained professional.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink!

I agree. Tonight, I started her out with a Pepper Spray writeup on the Cornerd Cat website. Something fairly non threatening . Then we'll go from there.

your priority is the children and you WILL NOT protect her if she won't protect herself.

Certainly. I'll defend my boy no matter what. If I can protect her as well, I surely will. But she's a big girl, and if I have to make a choice between saving my son or her, it will be my little 5 year old. Sadly, she'll be on her own to

take what is dished out.

Of course, I can't always be there. That is the frustrating, and disturbing part.

 

[srkavanagh6621]

Post is removed

 

[HankB]

Don't tell her a Taser is "potentially lethal."

Certainly. I'll defend my boy no matter what. If I can protect her as well, I surely will. But she's a big girl, and if I have to make a choice between saving my son or her, it will be my little 5 year old.

So you have a child?

Uh oh.

A person who refuses to consider the use of lethal force to defend themselves against an attacker has low self esteem - they're placing a higher value on the attacker's life than their own.

If they also refuse to consider it to protect their child, . . . well, I'm sorry, and you won't find my opinion helpful, but that's just messed up; it means she also places low value on the kid. I'm sorry to say you may have deeper problems here.

 

[brickeyee]

If ECD's were instruments of death, LEO's who "ride the lightning" during certifications would be dropping like flies.

Less lethal does not mean non-lethal.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Pull taser current across the heart and see what happens, secondly
cops ALWAYS (per every SOP I've read) back LTL with deadly force
she has what options, either attack some person and subdue them after tasing them or retreat

but how sucessful is retreat with a your kid involved, or in your house?
taser says in their instructions, hit them, drop the taser and RUN.

 

[jad0110]

A person who refuses to consider the use of lethal force to defend themselves against an attacker has low self esteem - they're placing a higher value on the attacker's life than their own.

I agree. If you look up the definition for low self esteem, my wife's picture would be there.

If they also refuse to consider it to protect their child, . . . well, I'm sorry, and you won't find my opinion helpful, but that's just messed up; it means she also places low value on the kid. I'm sorry to say you may have deeper problems here.

I know. Believe me, it is a rather challenging situation to be in.

10 years ago, when we got married, I too was a bliss ninny, just like she was at the time (more on that in a moment). But not long thereafter, maybe a couple of years, as I came out of my "I'm young and invincible" years, I began to understand and accept the fact that bad things happen to good people. And those good people always said the same thing, assuming they survived: "I never thought this would happen to me."

I soon started researching and educating myself, quickly finding the Warren v District of Columbia SC decision. At this point, I was fully aware that I am responsible for my safety. So I started researching the best method to protect myself and noted that a firearm is simply the best means of defense. So I rented and tried some guns, and found that I was very comfortable, able and confident with them and so I got my CCW permit and carry 100% of the time when I am legally able to do so (after getting training, some of it being informal from an instructor friend of mine). Also, more importantly, I am very aware of my surroundings.

Meanwhile, my wife is not pleased during this whole time. Apparently, as I began to open my eyes, I opened hers as well. Unlike me however, it only frightened her.

Last night, we had a lively discussion, to put it mildly. It's not just that she doesn't like guns, she stated emphatically that she is angry with me for waking her up out of her bliss ninny slumber (my phraseology, not hers). Before we married, she would wander city streets alone (NYC, Oakland, Chicago, etc), whilst digging around in her purse, completely unaware. And, according to her, completely happy and content.

Now, she is aware (because of me), and she is scared (she is insecure and does not know how to balance being unaware and being scared out of her mind) and all she wants to do is bury her head in the sand again and pretend nothing bad will ever happen. She refuses to learn about the tactics, and the advantages and disadvantages of pepper spray use. She just doesn't want to know. So she still wants the pepper spray, but she doesn't want to know how to use it .

Worse, she actually said she wants me to go back to the way I was. She wants us both to be blissfully unaware again. It pisses her off to no end when we are out and about and I've got my eye on what going on around me, and it isn't focused directly on her and our boy ONLY. For example, in a restaurant I like to sit in a location and position where I can observe everyone coming and going. I'm not a good multi-tasker, I admit, so when I'm watching the large crowd coming in and miss a question my son asks, the fireworks start.

I told her that the irony is that by projecting confidence and awareness, I am automatically less likely to become the target of an attack. Wheres her method invites it. I also emphatically stated that I will never go back to the ignorant person I once was. My duty as a father and husband is to defend my child, wife and self to the best of my ability; I will not be a victim, nor will I allow my loved ones to be victims. I can't imagine being powerless while thugs, well, I don't even want to go there. I said that unless you can learn to accept that, we will just have to go our separate ways.

Granted, likely none that did any good, but I had to say it for my own sanity.

Also, she repeated prior demands that I basically get rid of all my guns. All but one, because that is apparently all I need as "they all shoot bullets and they all kill, they are all the same". My reply was that purses carry crap, so all purses are the same, you only need one. All shoes cover your feet and keep them warm, so you only need one pair. All cars get you from point A to point B, so ditch your beloved minivan and get a Geo Metro.

She finally backed down, at least for now. This won't be the last battle.

Okay, I've thoroughly derailed my original post. I might start a new thread over in general. Just to here what others have to say about this situation.

 

[Shadow 7D]

YOUR KID
make it about keeping him safe
not her,
she really can't argue against keeping him safe
a gun, knowledge, training is nothing more that admitting that driving (statistically the most dangerous of common daily tasks) is dangerous and taking time to attending drivers Ed. and wearing your seat belt.

would she drive with him out of his seat, so why should she walk down the street the same, WILLFULLY ignoring danger.

Gift of Fear, by Gavin DeBecker is an awesome book to open her eyes. that and CorneredCat and the sites she links to.