Here's the story on that from another gun forum and thread.
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Re: The Final Word on Self Defense 9mm +P (Plus P) Ammo
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2008, 09:47:08 AM » Quote
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Ace's last sentence is something to live by......with todays ammo, the difference between +P and non +P is getting to be negligible. Use the ammo you feel comfortable with, and practice putting the bullet where you aim - practice a LOT. That will cure the problem, no matter what the caliber or rating.......
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Re: The Final Word on Self Defense 9mm +P (Plus P) Ammo
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2008, 10:01:33 AM » Quote Modify Remove
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It appears the reason for using +P sparingly has to do with some of what has been written above and other factors.
Older pistol types such as the Browning Hi-power and even some of the current compact ones may have trouble with a steady diet of +P. Not all handguns are built to take a steady pounding of high pressure. Most are or so it seems.
There is the liability issue that ammo and gun companies face if anything goes wrong. That's incentive enough for gun companies to have to cover their legal collective fannies. So they do.
Another is the human foible factor. People try to ramrod loads to high velocity or only shoot the high velocity only. The faster the better is okay under common sense usage.
There is a segment of users who forget or forego common sense completely. Hotly loaded ammo by themselves or the ammo makers are always used. Some of the do it your selfer loaders jack up pressures and speed to unheard of and unsafe levels commonly.
Out of personal experience there have been a couple dozen of these folks who handed me a bag, box, of the super duper blow the doors off (literally and figureatively) unsafe ammo and told to go have fun. Unless the load can be verified I do not accept 'gifts'. Had to learn that one the hard way in younger days. Wasn't hurt, but the firearm was. Got lucky.
Society seems to have a need for speed or the most power available. Within reason with firearms though needs to be considered. There are times it's needed and times it's not.
There are plenty of times it is not appropriate. The line between high speed and not situations can be admittedly thin at times.
There are exceptions to the high speed route.
Compact and subcompact guns do not always do well from a steady diet of +P or +P+ ammo. There are some exceptions but not many.
There are trade offs for lightness,concealability, portibility and convenience. That's in part why the smaller pistols are carried and created.
The trade off is that physics and that the smaller guns have smaller parts. Engineering into a small gun what is able to be into the larger counterparts are two different things. The smaller parts of the compact/subcompact guns means that while strong those parts/frame are not able to take the constant high pressures without battering or parts failure happening more frequently or sooner over the larger pistols. Wear and tear are accelerated on the small parts and frame of the smaller pistols.
With larger pistols more metal can be put into the frame where and if needed, heavier springs installed, and things beefed up as needed. Not so much so with the compact and smaller guns.
Down through the decades real world records as to what works and what doesn't have been kept track of. It's not totally infallible, but the method beats lab tests in non human media and anecdotal evidence based "info"
Won't go into all that.
Let's just say that the real world track record for standard pressure 9mm. loads has been good.
There's been much documented evidence of ample penetration and expansion for even the 115gr.JHPs down through the last few decades. That's why police agencies went to it decades ago. This is on even obese or heavy set humans. Even more so for the 124gr. loads.
147gr. JHPs had the older non-performers replaced several decades ago. Speer,Federal,Remington, and other companies saw to that. 147gr. JHPs have been expanding well and getting good penetration.
This has been all documented by a large number of tactical journals,authors,police journals, and gun magazines. Have those and keep the older journals.
+P and +P+ are more dynamic than standard 9mm. loads. Not to a larger degree than has been supposed though. Every little bit helps where stopping an agressive adversary is concerned,granted. But there are trade offs.
For some of us who can get out and practice with +P or +P+ on a regular full time basis (weekly or more often), can afford it, learn the recoil techniques to deal with it, and become proficient at this,fine.
There are those of us whose budget and time do not allow a lot of +P or +P+ practice. With the smaller pistols this is a very crucial thing. Small pistols are more labor, need more dedication, and time intensive to learn to shoot. Most are willing to put the time into doing so.
Shot to shot recovery takes longer with the +P ammo over standard pressure. In a gun fight that is crucial. Coming back down on target qucker and not loosing much advantage to the +P ammo isn't going to make that much difference to the target being hit if hit with standard pressure ammo and not +P. Whew. Todays bullets expand at lower speeds. Much better and wider than in times past.
Since the PT111 Mil/pro, the 24/7, and their brethren are not delicate pistols +P use up to a point is fine. Since I'd rather have recoil springs, small parts,frame, and small parts last longer +P is not used as much as others might.
If one chooses to go +P all the time,fine. Just stating the reasons as to why one might not want to or have a need to do so.
Let it be stated that +P+ is out for many brands, makes,models. For those that can shoot +P+ ammo, go for it.
The Taurus manual states that 1225 feet per second for a 124gr. 9mm bullet is the bar for which velocity is recommended for Taurus pistols. Granted +P is not recommended. Then the catalog and Taurus customer service state catergorically that +P can be used in all Taurus pistols.
It is prudent to use the owner manual's published recommended velocities as a benchmark not to be exceeded. There are +P load offerings that are in that ballpark ,give or take a few feet per second. That's for the 115gr. bullets as well. Though velocity can be ramped up a bit with the 115gr.+P offerings.
It still pays not to exceed recommended velocites and pressures. Taurus and other gun companies have the ballisticians and engineers who know of what they speak. There are exceptions to this as has been seen by all the respondents, what they posted, and a lot of truth has been laid down.
So choose what you will.
The above is from the people who own , have experience with, and shoot Taurus PT111 Millennium Pro pistols and Taurus 24/7 pistols. The Hyda-shoks in that weight class and velocity should pose no handicap at all.
Hope this helps.
