Will having more muzzle energy incapacitate faster?

[Dog Wonder]

I own an HK45c handgun which has a 3.9 inch barrel and use this handgun for protecting my family. I have purchased Federal's HST-230+p which has aprox. 450 ft.lbs. of energy and travels at aprox. 950 ft. per sec. I have also purchased Doubletaps-185+p which has aprox. 550ft.lbs. of energy and travels out of my HK45c at 1175 ft. per sec..
I know shot placement is vital-thats why I'm at our local range twice a month but I also know that in a shooting situation where you might not get ideal shot placement you have to count on what bullet will do the most tissue damage! My questions are does having more muzzle energy incapacitate faster! And number two question: Out of the fore-mentioned rounds -which would you pick for home defense & why?
Thank-You for your time!

 

[NMGonzo]

Nope.

 

[Dave T]

Not necessarily and not every time.

Dave

 

[rcmodel]

Energy is a meaningless term when it comes to actual bullet performance.

All the energy in the world will do less then nothing if the bullet fails to expand and shoots through the target.

Personally, I would rather have a .45 ACP load with less energy that I can control for faster follow-up shots, then one more powerful that kicks the gun off target and blinds me with the light from the muzzle flash.

I also prefer 230 grain bullets in the .45.
I have a .40 S&W that shoots 180 grain bullets.

rc

 

[Mikhail Weiss]

Likely not. Incapacitation is about two matters: poking holes in important things, and blood loss. That is, if wounds to vital organs occur, incapacitation will occur. Causing more wounds to such will likely increase the rate of incapacitation. If vital organs are not wounded, but significant amounts of blood are lost, incapacitation will occur. There is, however, a third route to “incapacitation,” and that's psychological disposition, which simply means the bad guy has decided to stop fighting, either because (as is alleged to occur in the vast majority of defensive gun uses) mere display of a weapon deters him, or because wounds, terminal or not, have deterred him.

As to which round I'd choose, I'd pick the one that functioned reliably in my pistol, and that allowed me to produced the most useful and timely accuracy. It's very likely, though, that you'll not notice any appreciable difference between the two. In that case, I'd probably pick the 230-grain HST, simply because my practice ammo is 230-grain hardball, and the load data you cite would make it a much closer match to what I carry than the other load would. In other words, I like the idea of matching or very closely approximating the feel of my SD load with my practice ones. Some ammo recoils more, some less. If the SD ammo produces recoil characteristics like that of the practice ammo, all the better. Does this matter much? Probably not. But I like the idea of keeping things as consistent as possible.

And to state the obvious: it's more important to make the bullets go where you intend than to worry about what kind you send.

Meanwhile, nice gun, and either of those ammunition choices would work.

 

[Z-Michigan]

No reliable correlation within a range of comparable cartridges, e.g. 40 vs 45. If you compare a .22 to a 50 BMG you'll find the 50 more effective. It does of course have roughly 100 times as much energy as the .22.

Hitting your target is most important. I'd be more wary of a skilled person with a .22 than a novice with a .50.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Energy is one component of the formula that dictates a bullet's performance, but it does not directly correlate. If the bullet over penetrates without expanding, it does not matter how much kinetic energy it had. If the bullet disintegrates on imact and fails to penetrate, it does not matter how much kinetic energy it has.

That said, it's not rocket science to understand that if two identical bullets encounter a barrier, assuming bullet construction is up to the task, the one with higher velocity (more energy) is more likely to defeat the barrier or be more lethal after passing through the barrier.

Energy is a good way for comparing the potential of various cartridges and guestimating the kind of recoil you'll deal with, but certainly not the only important number

 

[IdahoLT1]

Energy is one component of the formula that dictates a bullet's performance, but it does not directly correlate. If the bullet over penetrates without expanding, it does not matter how much kinetic energy it had. If the bullet disintegrates on imact and fails to penetrate, it does not matter how much kinetic energy it has.

That said, it's not rocket science to understand that if two identical bullets encounter a barrier, assuming bullet construction is up to the task, the one with higher velocity (more energy) is more likely to defeat the barrier or be more lethal after passing through the barrier.

Energy is a good way for comparing the potential of various cartridges and guestimating the kind of recoil you'll deal with, but certainly not the only important number

Excellent post. Some, like have already posted, will say energy doesnt matter. But when bullet design and shot placement are equal, the one having more energy will incapacitate faster.

When hunting, you can stop an animals heart w/out the bullet even contacting it. Human bodies are made up of 72% water. When a bullet impacts tissue, it creates pressure which causes a ripple effect, much like throwing a rock into a pond. These ripples, if strong/intense enough, can stop organs.

If bigger holes can cause an animal to bleed out quicker, why isnt the .45ACP allowed for pistol hunting in some states when the smaller diameter .357mag and 10mm Auto are? Its because the projectiles they fire create more energy and can humanely kill an animal quicker.

So OP, i would see which of the rounds you are more accurate with and go with those. If they are both equally accurate, go with the lighter faster one.

 

[easyg]

It does seem that the calibers with lower energy (.22, .25ACP, .38 special, .32, etc...) are less effective than calibers with higher energy (.357 magnum, 9mm+P, .45ACP, 10mm, .40S&W, .357Sig, etc...) when it comes to quickly stopping an aggressor.


Here are a few things to consider:

Shot placement is king. You have to hit the target regardless of the bullet's energy.

Upon hitting the target, the bullet must penetrate deep enough to damage/disrupt vital organs, bones, and/or large veins and arteries.
Higher energy rounds typically penetrate deeper than low energy rounds.

One can never count upon bullet expansion regardless of the bullet's energy.
Sometimes bullets simply don't expand (clogged tip, fragmenting, etc...).

Over-penetration is bad because it can cause collateral damage to innocent bystanders.

But over-penetration is not always bad when trying to stop an attacker (provided that there are no innocent bystanders around), if you have good shot placement.
After all, if a bullet enters the target's chest and passes through the sternum, and through the heart, and through the thoracic spine, and then out the target's back; it will still be a very effective hit....damaging both the heart and the thoracic spine.
Poor penetration, like a bullet that is stopped by the sternum, will not cause much damage.
Bullets with more energy are more likely to pass through barriers like the sternum.

 

[Philo_Beddoe]

Not necessarily.

Some of the +p+ 115 gr 9mm loads have alot of energy but they expand to quickly and actually perform worse then the lower energy 147 gr 9mm.

 

[easyg]

Not necessarily.

Some of the +p+ 115 gr 9mm loads have alot of energy but they expand to quickly and actually perform worse then the lower energy 147 gr 9mm.

IF they expand.

And as I stated before, one can NEVER count upon bullet expansion in a real life situation.

 

[Noveldoc]

Bleeding out will incapacitate that alleged perp, eventually. If you hit the heart or a major artery, death can be very quick indeed. Otherwise, the bleeding out process can take minutes to hours and even a few minutes gives him time to shoot you until you bleed out.

Just aim and pray. One shot or even several shot stops with a handgun are far from guaranteed.

Working as a ER doc, I have seen many folks with mutiple pistol GSWs survive. When I worked in a rural ER and most of the shooting was done with shotguns and deer rifles, few made it.

Moral here is keep a 12 gauge in the closet to defend your family. Nothing like making the other guy take a pistol to a shotgun fight.

Tom

 

[nulfisin]

Of course it matters

Otherwise, we'd all use 22s. But it's not the the most important factor. Shot placement is, as stated above, the most critical element. A larger bullet, such as the 45 ACP or 45 LC is also going to punch a bigger hole and destroy more tissue. That's good.

More energy will create a bigger shock wave, assuming you have a good expanding bullet. That's also good. But only if you hit what you're aiming.

Bottom line: use the most energy in a gun that you can shoot ACCURATELY.

 

[rondog]

JMHO, but I think it's the transfer of the energy that will enable a bullet to incapacitate better/faster. In other words, a bullet with a high muzzle velocity and energy that performs properly and immediately transfers that energy to the target in the form of shock and damage, will be the winner.

All the energy in the world won't mean squat if the bullet just whizzes right through. But if it mushrooms properly and creates a huge wound channel as it screeches to a halt, well, that's energy transferring to the target. JMHO.

 

[Slamfire]

Kinetic energy is not conserved in a collision. KE = Mass times velocity squared.

Momentum is conserved in a collision. ME = Mass times velocity.

Momentum kills. Just drop a 50 pound cement bag, from a couple of floors up, on someone.

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/530251-worker-killed-in-construction-accident

 

[KBintheSLC]

Yes... energy does matter in the extreme. That is why rifles and shotguns work much better than pistols do. However, in the context of comparing 2 loads in 45acp, I don't think the energy difference dictates what is the more effective round. The 45acp was designed around a 230g bullet. Therefore, I would assume that it would perform best using a 230g bullet. If you load it with a hot 185g round, you are basically turning it into a 40 SW.

 

[NMGonzo]

Nope

That being said, I carry stuff that makes pretty big holes already.

 

[NG VI]

Between the two loads you have I would go with the HST, it is a great bullet design, not that the Gold Dot is a bad one, but between a 185 Gold Dot and a 230 HST I would definitely pick HST.

As far as muzzle energy goes, I can't put it any better than other members already have.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Incapacitation is about two matters: poking holes in important things, and blood loss.

Dead right. Some people will make noise about "hydrostatic shock" but if it occurs, it isn't significant at pistol-power levels. It's the hole that kills. Make a big enough, deep enough hole in the right place and you will succeed.

Part of "big enough" is bullet expansion. Expanded bullets make wide holes. But part of "deep enough" is penetration -- and expansion reduces penetration. It is possible to over-drive a bullet, make it expand too much, and lose penetration. Similarly, it is possible to under-drive a bullet and get little or no penetration.

In the .45, I like a 230 grain expanding bullet -- generally, if it doesn't expand, it still makes a big hole. And at .45 velocities, over-driving the bullet isn't likely.

 

[berkbw]

One of the keys is how quickly is the available energy spent in the target. Another issue deals with the effect of supersonic hits. So the answer is both yes and no.

The bigger hole, the better, and highly expanding slugs usually do best at high velocity. If you have the time to wait, the necrosis from supersonic hits is MASSIVE. Just not immediate.

b-

 

[MTS840]

I own an HK45c handgun which has a 3.9 inch barrel and use this handgun for protecting my family. I have purchased Federal's HST-230+p which has aprox. 450 ft.lbs. of energy and travels at aprox. 950 ft. per sec. I have also purchased Doubletaps-185+p which has aprox. 550ft.lbs. of energy and travels out of my HK45c at 1175 ft. per sec..
I know shot placement is vital-thats why I'm at our local range twice a month but I also know that in a shooting situation where you might not get ideal shot placement you have to count on what bullet will do the most tissue damage! My questions are does having more muzzle energy incapacitate faster! And number two question: Out of the fore-mentioned rounds -which would you pick for home defense & why?

No. Not necessarily.

There are two ways to incapacitate an aggressor. The first is psychological, which is the subjects' state of mind at the time he is hit by a projectile. This is highly unpredicatable and varies from person to person. This is not so much a characteristic of the projectile he is hit with, but his own reaction to being shot.

Physiological incapacitation happens when the body can no longer continue to attack. Except for a Central Nervous System hit, the only other way to 'shut down' the body is by blood loss, and this takes time. This article may explain it better:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714

 

[Pasteur]

In the Textbook of Military Medicine, Ronald Bellamy describes the relationship between energy transfer and wounding:

Traditional soft-tissue wound surgery excises the hemorrhagic, shredded, pulped tissue of the zone of extravasation and some of its neighboring zone of concussion. This mass of debrided tissue is commonly used as an index of tissue damage, and can be correlated with measured energy transfer…

The results of a typical experiment show the mass of debrided skeletal muscle from swine thigh plotted against energy transfer (Figure 4-30)…the graph shows a definite tendency for the mass of debrided tissue to increase with greater energy transfer.

Although the data can be fitted by a linear regression model, no biophysical process, especially one as complicated as a projectile's penetration through tissue, is likely to be described by a simple linear relationship. Nevertheless, Swedish ballistic researchers, on the basis of their extensive experience, estimate that each J of energy transferred damages 0.3g of muscle…

Total energy transfer, however, gives only part of the available information about the projectile-target interaction. Energy transfer plotted as a function of depth of penetration gives a much clearer picture. The concept is further illuminated when the magnitude of debrided tissue is seen as a function of energy transfer and both are plotted along the wound tract. Figures 4-32 and 4-33 show the results of especially elegant experiments that were designed to relate tissue damage in skeletal muscle to energy transfer along the wound tract.

 

[jon_in_wv]

I think a bullets energy is the most misunderstood factor there is. Some will say energy means NOTHING. Really? How deadly is a bullet with ZERO energy? Energy is merely the bullets ability to do work. That work includes deformation of the bullet, penetration, creating momentum, etc...... The projectile should have a minimum amount of energy to perform the work it needs to do or it won't do its job. Rifle bullets have a ton of energy. They also do a LOT of damage when they hit the target. Pistol bullets don't have enough energy to do that type of damage and are much more dependent on proper bullet construction. The +p+ 9mm mentioned above expands very quickly and its energy is very quickly used up in bullet deformation and transferring its momentum to the soft tissue around it. The 147gr bullet transfers its momentum more slowly as it expands more slowly resulting in deeper penetration. That same bullet with less energy or at a lower velocity may not expand as much and may penetrate even deeper but its wound path may be less destructive. At higher velocity it may expand ever more and penetrate less. Driven even faster it may expand well and still drive deeply. The higher energy levels and velocity may give it more reliable expansion and enhanced ability to punch through intermediate barriers, bone, etc....at the cost of increased recoil. While energy is a very important factor the AMOUNT of energy as it is tailored to the bullet construction is the real issue with pistol bullets. More is not always better but in my opinion its rarely worse.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

If bigger holes can cause an animal to bleed out quicker, why isnt the .45ACP allowed for pistol hunting in some states when the smaller diameter .357mag and 10mm Auto are? Its because the projectiles they fire create more energy and can humanely kill an animal quicker.

No, it's because the state legislature, or someone in the Fish and Game Department thinks the .357 and 10mm are more effective cartridges. There's no science behind the decision to restrict or regulate certain guns or other hunting weapons.

While kinetic energy means something, it can be completely submerged by other factors -- including bullet shape, bullet construction and shooting ability.

 

[Vonderek]

I am definitely no scientist or ballistician but I think energy is highly important. I think in a fight most people here would rather have a .308 w/fmj that doesn't expand and will completely penetrate just about anything organic over .45 jhp.