Will having more muzzle energy incapacitate faster?

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CHP Firearms Unit has data showing .40 S&W 180gr stopping criminal violence better than .357 Magum 125gr SJHP they once used.

:eek:

i'd have to question that data...



Can you provide information/data to support your claim?

180gr. .40 beats the lighter loads in every category including intermediate barrier penetration


check out these one shot stopping percentages (and notice the best performers in 9 and 40 are the light loads):

http://www.handguninfo.com/Archive/www.Pete-357.com/one.shot.stops.htm

this data is from 2001, put the same principles (and ammo) still applies.
 
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The .223 had a greater temporary cavity because of its velocity/energy advantage.
The .223 had a greater temporary cavity because of its velocity/fragmentation. Handguns are not capable of producing high enough velocity to cause measurable wounding due to stretching/secondary wound channels. (Bullet fragmentation/bone fragments.)
 
Actual police shootings are not repeatable in tests, nor can we know why the suspect stopped when being shot. The FBI report I posted goes into this in depth.
 
so the question really was whether kinetic energy transfer is a factor at all with pistol calibers.

There seems to be a mistaken impression that energy does the killing, wounding or stopping. It does not. The bullet does that. The bullet in motion has a certain amount of kinetic energy but it is the bullet, not the energy, that does the work. This is one reason bullet construction, velocity, weight and caliber make a difference. There are no "energy guns"... yet. Just guns that fire projectiles.

Kinetic energy is measured in foot pounds of energy. This is only a unit of measurement of the bullet's ability to do work. A fpe is the amount of energy it takes to raise a one pound weight one foot off the ground. 500 ftlbs of energy is the amount of energy required to lift a one pd. weight 500 feet off the ground. Or a 500 pd. weight 1 foot off the ground.

As energy cannot be destroyed, it is transferred. Bullets do work. To do that work they require energy. They overcome the friction of the barrel, they buck the atmosphere and gravity, they penetrate the struck object, they expand, maybe bounce off bone, etc. Energy is used to do all this and is transferred (or lost to the bullet) in the form of noise and heat.

Energy is a consideration for the serious shooter. Usually more or less important depending on the task. It is one of a number of things to look at. It will not tell you how effective a handgun round will be for self defense but it is one of the things to look at.

tipoc
 
Snipped from the FBI report:
The Allure of Shooting Incident Analyses

There is no valid, scientific analysis of actual shooting results in existence, or being pursued to date. It is an unfortunate vacuum because a wealth of data exists, and new data is being sadly generated every day. There are some well publicized, so called analyses of shooting incidents being promoted, however, they are greatly flawed. Conclusions are reached based on samples so small that they are meaningless. The author of one, for example, extols the virtues of his favorite cartridge because he has collected ten cases of one shot stops with it.38 Preconceived notions are made the basic assumptions on which shootings are categorized. Shooting incidents are selectively added to the "data base" with no indication of how many may have been passed over or why. There is no correlation between hits, results, and the location of the hits upon vital organs.





It would be interesting to trace a life-sized anatomical drawing on the back of a target, fire 20 rounds at the "center of mass" of the front, then count how many of these optimal, center of mass hits actually struck the heart, aorta, vena cava, or liver.39 It is rapid hemorrhage from these organs that will best increase the likelihood of incapacitation. Yet nowhere in the popular press extolling these studies of real shootings are we told what the bullets hit.



These so called studies are further promoted as being somehow better and more valid than the work being done by trained researchers, surgeons and forensic labs. They disparage laboratory stuff, claiming that the "street" is the real laboratory and their collection of results from the street is the real measure of caliber effectiveness, as interpreted by them, of course. Yet their data from the street is collected haphazardly, lacking scientific method and controls, with no noticeable attempt to verify the less than reliable accounts of the participants with actual investigative or forensic reports. Cases are subjectively selected (how many are not included because they do not fit the assumptions made?). The numbers of cases cited are statistically meaningless, and the underlying assumptions upon which the collection of information and its interpretation are based are themselves based on myths such as knock-down power, energy transfer, hydrostatic shock, or the temporary cavity methodology of flawed work such as RII.




Further, it appears that many people are predisposed to fall down when shot. This phenomenon is independent of caliber, bullet, or hit location, and is beyond the control of the shooter. It can only be proven in the act, not predicted. It requires only two factors to be effected: a shot and cognition of being shot by the target. Lacking either one, people are not at all predisposed to fall down and don't. Given this predisposition, the choice of caliber and bullet is essentially irrelevant. People largely fall down when shot, and the apparent predisposition to do so exists with equal force among the good guys as among the bad. The causative factors are most likely psychological in origin. Thousands of books, movies and television shows have educated the general population that when shot, one is supposed to fall down.




The problem, and the reason for seeking a better cartridge for incapacitation, is that individual who is not predisposed to fall down. Or the one who is simply unaware of having been shot by virtue of alcohol, adrenaline, narcotics, or the simple fact that in most cases of grievous injury the body suppresses pain for a period of time. Lacking pain, there may be no physiological effect of being shot that can make one aware of the wound. Thus the real problem: if such an individual is threatening one's life, how best to compel him to stop by shooting him?




The factors governing incapacitation of the human target are many, and variable. The actual destruction caused by any small arms projectile is too small in magnitude relative to the mass and complexity of the target. If a bullet destroys about 2 ounces of tissue in its passage through the body, that represents 0.07 of one percent of the mass of a 180 pound man. Unless the tissue destroyed is located within the critical areas of the central nervous system, it is physiologically insufficient to force incapacitation upon the unwilling target. It may certainly prove to be lethal, but a body count is no evidence of incapacitation. Probably more people in this country have been killed by .22 rimfires than all other caliberscombined, which, based on body count, would compel the use of .22's for self-defense. The more important question, which is sadly seldom asked, is what did the individual do when hit?





There is a problem in trying to assess calibers by small numbers of shootings. For example, as has been done, if a number of shootings were collected in which only one hit was attained and the percentage of one shot stops was then calculated, it would appear to be a valid system. However, if a large number of people are predisposed to fall down, the actual caliber and bullet are irrelevant. What percentage of those stops were thus preordained by the target? How many of those targets were not at all disposed to fall down? How many multiple shot failures to stop occurred? What is the definition of a stop? What did the successful bullets hit and what did the unsuccessful bullets hit? How many failures were in the vital organs, and how many were not? How many of the successes? What is the number of the sample? How were the cases collected? What verifications were made to validate the information? How can the verifications be checked by independent investigation?




Because of the extreme number of variables within the human target, and within shooting situations in general, even a hundred shootings is statistically insignificant. If anything can happen, then anything will happen, and it is just as likely to occur in your ten shootings as in ten shootings spread over a thousand incidents.
 
It's not an exact science, and there are too many variables.

Based on all I've read and my training, I take the following view of things:

[1] There is no magic bullet.

[2] Shot placement is king.

[3] One particular set up (faster, light bullet) may work a little better than another (slower, heavier bullet) under one set of circumstances. And then again another set up might be better yet under different circumstances. But you can not know in advance exactly what the circumstances of you nasty encounter, if any, will be. So everything is going to be a compromise.

[4] Therefore, I am generally comfortable with any available, good quality, commercial JHP ammunition from a reputable maker as long as I've confirmed personally that it functions reliably in my gun and that I can shoot it accurately in my gun.
 
If you have the stomach to view this link, it graphically illustrates a man shot 17 times with .223 and .40 cal. S&W gold dot and kept firing back. Perhaps this will enlighten us that it is shot placement and to a lesser degree penetration, that plays the roll in actual shooting situations. I hope you don't think of this as a highjack of your thread. WARNING GRAPIC IMAGES!



Yeah I've seen that before, if I'm not mistaken (not looking at it again, I remember it well enough) the guy was still feebly fighting with the cops when they got to him. Shot placement matters, I think that hurt the cops more than bullet performance did. That said, I've found an awful lot of unexpanded Gold Dots (that I launched) while out shooting, I've got a 124 grain and several 180 grain bullets kicking around that could probably be safely fired again if loaded.
 
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Actual police shootings are not repeatable in tests, nor can we know why the suspect stopped when being shot. The FBI report I posted goes into this in depth.




reaper, where did your mother and i go wrong?


He's absolutely right about it not being repeatable, and the newer 180 grain loads of the last eight to ten years really do work better than the 155s of today or 1995, for an example check out the Federal HST and the Winchester Ranger-T.


But what is most important in a handgun is adequate penetration, I think 12" is kind of arbitrary but totally functional, and after adequate penetration, as much expansion as possible. Once a bullet reaches eleven, twelve, thirteen inches into a person, there isn't much if anything to be gained by additional penetration if it means sacrificing expansion to get it. If a bullet makes it 13" into people consistently and expands to .80" or so, that's pretty damn good. I'd take medium penetration with superb expansion over 3/4 FMJ penetration and limited expansion every time.
 
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I don't totally agree with this statement.
Personally, I don't know if there is "science" behind the notion or not.
But it is a fact that certain calibers are generally more effective at quickly killing game than other calibers.
Which is neither here nor there, because most such laws (about which handguns can be used for hunting) is not based on testing or collection of data.
I wonder, can you prove your statement?
Please, tell us exactly how you know upon what "most" hunting laws are based.

I dare say that you're just making assumptions without any evidence.

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The .357 magnum, from a 4" or greater barrel has a good reputation for harvesting game....much better than say a .380 caliber.
Actually, it doesn't have a "good" reputation. It's merely permitted by law. Who knows how many wounded deer have escaped after being shot by a .357?
From hunters that I know, and from personal experience, I can safely say that, YES, the .357 magnum does have a good reputation for harvesting game (note I did not restrict "game" as meaning only deer).

Again, I think that you're making assumptions without evidence.
 

So I guess you think it's insane to even question the value of hollow-point ammunition. I disagree because I consider adequate penetration more important than maximum expansion, and it is impossible to know exactly how much penetration is needed for each shot that I might be forced to take. If I have to shoot through an arm bone, for example, I might wish that I had used a FMJ or hard-cast round instead of JHP with its more limited penetration.

Don't get me wrong, my current self-defense cartridge of choice is a JHP because I think it gives me the best performance for the caliber in the grand scheme of things, but I'd welcome any arguments for other types of bullets, especially in the less energetic calibers where penetration may truly be lacking. Your responses in this thread seem rather absolute, if you don't mind me pointing this out.
 
There seems to be a mistaken impression that energy does the killing, wounding or stopping. It does not. The bullet does that. The bullet in motion has a certain amount of kinetic energy but it is the bullet, not the energy, that does the work. This is one reason bullet construction, velocity, weight and caliber make a difference.

I understand what you're saying, but the idea is that exceptionally fast bullets can impart their kinetic energy and momentum to the tissue, causing stretching and tearing beyond the contact area of the bullet (or its fragments). Obviously with pistol calibers there is not enough energy to cause substantial damage of this form in a large animal (although small ones can still literally be blown apart).

My question was simply whether some bad guys will feel more pain from getting hit harder, which may cause some of them to stop or flee when they otherwise would not have. I don't know because I've never been shot, and certainly not with several different calibers. I'm looking at a very broad picture with a lot of possibilities. I mean, many bad guys will run at the mere sight of a gun, so you don't necessarily even need a bullet to make a stop. Some of us are clearly taking a more narrow view of the subject of "incapacitation" and that's OK--just saying.
 
well it's actual police shootings. i certainly don't think it's 100% correct all the time, but it does have validity.

In my opinion, the biggest problem with the Marshall and Sanow data is that they base their conclusions on the psychological reacton that a subject has when he realizes he has been shot. Obviously, this reaction varies among individuals and cannot be predicted beforehand.

As I posted earlier, a subject may fall down, give up, turn around and run, or become enraged and press the attack. Even if he is not hit at all, he may fall down at a near miss. Should a caliber or load be considered effective based on the reaction of the subject who has just been shot?

Even minor wounds may cause him to fall down or stop the attack.

From the shooter's point of view, this is a 'stop,' but what damage did the bullet really do? If a subject is shot in the torso and he falls down, does it matter where in the torso he was hit? If he did stop the attack after sustaining only a minor wound, does that make the caliber and load the shooter was using at the time effective? If this is true, a shot to the lower abdomen could be just as effective as a shot through the heart. If this is true, then shot placement is not really important and it dismisses everything I have ever learned about armed combat.

If shot placement or organ damage are not important, but only what is observed by the shooter, then we can base our caliber decisions on hopes of inducing a psychological 'stop.' If it worked for one good guy, then others will carry it even if the bullet did relatively minor damage to the bad guy.

Obviously, basing your caliber or load selection on hopes that the bad guy will react as you expect is potentially fatal.

Another problem with the M&S data is the way in which it was collected.

As the FBI article read as quoted by REAPER, in the M&S studies, there seemed to be no consistent way in which some shootings were accepted and some were rejected.

These so called studies are further promoted as being somehow better and more valid than the work being done by trained researchers, surgeons and forensic labs. They disparage laboratory stuff, claiming that the "street" is the real laboratory and their collection of results from the street is the real measure of caliber effectiveness, as interpreted by them, of course. Yet their data from the street is collected haphazardly, lacking scientific method and controls, with no noticeable attempt to verify the less than reliable accounts of the participants with actual investigative or forensic reports. Cases are subjectively selected (how many are not included because they do not fit the assumptions made?). The numbers of cases cited are statistically meaningless, and the underlying assumptions upon which the collection of information and its interpretation are based are themselves based on myths such as knock-down power, energy transfer, hydrostatic shock, or the temporary cavity methodology of flawed work such as RII.

According to a 1996 article in which Dale Towert defended Marshall and Sanow's methodology, he noted why one torso shot was included while multiple torso shots were excluded:

http://www.stoppingpower.net/commentary/comm_validity.asp

According to this article, which is found on Evan's own forum, the 'stop' occurs from the shooter's point of view and only one hit was counted while multiple hits were discounted.
The shooter observed the shot to be instantly effective. The shooter was in a situation where there was only time to fire a single shot before the attacker was "on them".

Better research and methodology has shown that because a psychological reaction is unpredictable, physiological incapacitation is the only reliable way to stop an attacker. According to the FBI article:

Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.

And according to Dr. Gary K. Roberts' article "Basic Wound Ballistic Terminal Performance Facts"

The degree and rapidity of any physiological incapacitation is determined by the anatomic structures the projectile disrupts and the severity of the tissue damage caused by the bullet. Physiologically, immediate incapacitation or death can only occur when the brain or upper spinal cord is damaged or destroyed. The tactical reality is that in combat, opportunities for military personnel to take precisely aimed shots at the CNS of enemy combatants is rare due to high stress unexpected contact marked by rapid fleeting movements, along with frequent poor visibility on the battlefield including use of cover and concealment. Thus the reduced likelihood of frequent planned CNS targeting in combat conditions. Absent CNS damage, circulatory system collapse from severe disruption of the vital organs and blood vessels in the torso is the only other reliable method of physiological incapacitation from small arms. If the CNS is uninjured, physiological incapacitation is delayed until blood loss is sufficient to deprive the brain of oxygen. Multiple hits may be needed before an individual is physiologically incapacitated. An individual wounded in any area of the body other than the CNS may physiologically be able to continue their actions for a short period of time, even with non-survivable injuries. In a 1992 IWBA Journal paper, Dr. Ken Newgard wrote the following about how blood loss effects incapacitation:

“A 70 kg male has a cardiac output of around 5.5 liters per minute. His blood volume is about 4200 cc. Assuming that his cardiac output can double under stress, his aortic blood flow can reach 11 Liters per minute. If this male had his thoracic aorta totally severed, it would take him 4.6 seconds to lose 20% of his total blood volume. This is the minimum amount of time in which a person could lose 20% of his blood volume from one point of injury. A marginally trained person can fire at a rate of two shots per second. In 4.6 seconds there could easily be 9 shots of return fire before the assailant’s activity is neutralized. Note this analysis does not account for oxygen contained in the blood already perusing the brain that will keep the brain functioning for an even longer period of time
.”


So I would say that the data you quoted may sound good, but the methodology and the conclusions drawn from it cannot be trusted as valid.

There are a lot of great resources and links that have been posted in this thread and a careful reading of REAPERS posting of the FBI's "Handgun Wounding Factors And Effectiveness" is a great place to start.

I would also suggest the book "Bullet Penetration..." by Duncan MacPherson

http://www.firearmstactical.com/bulletpenetration.htm

I think you'll find that these studies are much more reliable than the data you have quoted.
 
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From Manco;
My question was simply whether some bad guys will feel more pain from getting hit harder, which may cause some of them to stop or flee when they otherwise would not have.

The answer, of course is that some have. Also some have not. But when we can we all prefer the harder hit with deeper penetration. We know that there are no guarantees of what any bullet will do so we weigh the odds in favor of what we know they can do with proper shot placement, the right bullet and some luck.

Two things help a bullet hit harder. These are bullet weight and velocity.

A couple of points that are sometimes overlooked I think:

Over the last 24 years there has been significant redesign of hp ammo for all semi auto calibers. Virtually all jhp ammo intended for self defense in a service caliber is designed to penetrate 12-14" in 10% ballistic gelatin. A 9mm/38 bullet at 1200-1300 fps can penetrate as deeply as a 45 caliber bullet, not break up, and expand.

Some service calibers have been widely used for about 100 years now and continue to be used because they do their jobs well. Better bullet construction has improved them.

tipoc
 
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