BP TC Renegade Need Advice.

[JoeTheDeer]

I have a 50 cal TC Renegade from years ago, 80's, with the set trigger. My problem is accuracy. It was originally rifled as a ball gun but I shoot the conical bullets in it. I think the twist rate was too slow but it was workable.

Used to be the tight fitting bullets would shoot well but the looser ones never hit the same area. I used the TC 350 maxi hunters for a while and when I had problems I switched to Horniday bullets 385 gr. After those I used the saboted pistol bullets and now I was using the high pressure hornaday sabot with 45 bullet. The 44 bullets will tumble and bounce into the target now. 45 is needed.

I made the changes cause the grouping got better. Today the 350 maxi hunters gave me a 12 inch grp at 100 yds. Awful. .

How can I fix this?

I think this is all caused by the low spin rate and wear on the barrel. Bullets which were once tight fitters now more or less drop in once it passes the first three inches of barrel.

I can adjust powder charge, bullet weight, and bullet. What would help? light fast bullet, heavy slow bullet, 45 in a sabot made for a 44 bullet. larger bullets , larger round ball.

I am a poor person so a new barrel is not possible. I may have to find the best I can and limit my shots to 50 yards or less.

Thanks, Joe.

 

[J-Bar]

I took the biggest deer I have ever harvested with a TC Renegade, a 9 point whitetail, so I have a fondness for that gun.

There are others who will hopefully give you additional advice, but it sounds to me like you are trying to make a sow's ear out of a silk purse. If it is rifled with a slow twist for round balls, stick with patched round balls. Tuning the gun with the right powder charge and ball diameter should give you a very good 100 yard gun.

You don't say what your powder charge is. You may be trying to push them too hard. Try powder charges in the 75 to 80 grain range.

 

[BADUNAME30]

YEP, what J-Bar said about the silky pig ear thing.The gun was made to shoot round balls and it WILL shoot them very accurately once you dial in the correct charge/ball/patch combo.

Bullets which were once tight fitters now more or less drop in once it passes the first three inches of barrel.

I've never used them so forgive my ignorance. Is it possible there is plastic buildup near the muzzle from the sabots ? Is there any rust or corrosion in this area ?

WELCOME to the forum JTD.

 

[arcticap]

100 yards is an arbitrary distance and not necessarily the distance that all muzzle loaders and their loads need to be able to shoot good groups at.
The modern fast twist inline rifles are expected to perform well at 100 - 200 yards especially with a scope mounted on it. But the naked eye also has its limitations. Most folks shoot off hand when they're hunting and don't use a bench or a rest either.
Since BP hunters usually only get to shoot one shot out of a clean cold barrel, rarely do they get a chance to shoot an entire group at a single deer standing out at 100 yards.
70 yards is a much more realistic distance for a used traditional sidelock muzzle loader to be able to shoot with minute of deer accuracy.
That doesn't mean that you should stop trying to improve your load. However, 12 inch groups at 100 yards isn't all that bad for a bullet weighing 350 grains or more. That's nearly paper plate accuracy.
Sure, every component can be changed to try to improve the groups.
One thing that folks do is to place a .50 wool wad or over powder card under their bullet to act as a gas check and see if that improves accuracy and consistency or not.
Another thing that folks do is too swab their barrel after every shot or two.
The more powder that's loaded, the more accuracy robbing residue that will be left behind.
Another suggestion would be to try a hollow base bullet that will expand to better engage the rifling upon firing. Hornady makes one that is copper jacketed which is named the FBP bullet that shoots well from a variety of rifling twists. Harder to load in some guns but it can be tapped in using a mallet if that's the case.

http://www.hornady.com/store/50-Cal-300-gr-FPB/

Then compare it to the performance of the saboted bullets that you're using.
And don't worry about group measurements so much but rather about how accurate the first shot is from a cold clean barrel.
We don't know which type of powder or load that you're using, or how clean that your barrel is kept between shots.
There are different kinds of sabots from different manufacturers including MMP and Harvester. They come in a variety of diameters which are not all the same.

http://mmpsabots.com/

The big difference between Black HPH12 and HPH24 is HPH24 is .002" smaller in loaded diameter. Loaded diameter is a sabot with a bullet inserted.
With a .452 diameter bullet the HPH12 is .507-.508" diameter, the HPH24 is .505"-.506" diameter.
If you have a tight loading rifle you may want to choose the HPH24
or if you have a very tight rifle, consider our 3Petal-EZ....
....Loaded diameter .502"-.504"

For a small amount of money, you may be able to buy a new inline muzzle loader and scope combo. that will shoot saboted bullets accurately out to 100-200 yards or more.
And if you decide to sell your Renegade then you could probably receive $150 - $200 for it. Then you could probably buy a whole new inline hunting rig for about that same amount of money.
Tell us more about your loads and maybe we can give some more helpful advice.
But basically the shorter the conical, the easier it is to stabilize it with a medium twist barrel. I'm pretty sure that there's loads that will shoot better for you. And if not then 70-80 yards is just about the average maximum deer hunting range for a medium twist traditional sidelock rifle, especially if it's 25 - 30 years old.
If you can find a way to afford a Green Mountain drop in barrel for it then the gun would be all set for a long time. GM barrels come in a variety of twists from fast to slow, and in different calibers. But with open sights, folks can only shoot as good as their eyes and off hand shooting ability will allow.
Shooting sidelocks today is just like in the old days, as good as the workmanship and materials of that day allowed. But today's materials are much, much better.
Good luck and let us know if you can find a way to make some improvements, or simply lower your expectations to how well the 1st shot will impact from a cold, clean barrel when shooting off-hand with open sights.

 

[JoeTheDeer]

Quick Response then I will reread.

I am using 90 grains of Hogden pyrodex replacement. A PREMIUM REPLACEMENT OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. tHE CAN IS nOT WITH ME NOW. Fat fingers. Sorry.

350 grain TC maxihunters for bullets. I shot 2 485 grain bullets that missed the paper all together. Same TC maxihunters. I also shot two 385 grain hornaday bullets that missed the paper.

All shots at 100 yds.

I run three patches thru the barrel on a brush after every shot until it comes out with little residue.

The barrel was VERY clean before I started. I used copper solvent hoppes that gets rid of plastic too.

My dad left it uncleaned one or two years an it had a lot of rust inside. Rust is gone but the bullets go in easy now.

All good advice. Thanks.

I will try some shots today at 50 yards. Most of the deer I shoot are at less than 50 yards anyway. I will drop powder charge, use lighter bullets, and try some patched balls. And I will start looking for some new bullets.

Does anyone think the 300 grain 45 xtp pistol bullet would be safe in a plastic sabot designed for 44 xtp pistol bullets??

I also got the don't worry so much about group but where the bullet hits out of a clean barrel. Thanks. I do listen even if I don't always comment on stuff.

Thank for all responses. Keep them coming.

The 50 cal gas check wad sounds like a good idea too. More consisent velocity.

 

[Skyshot]

Three things that work good in my Thompson Hawken 1:48 twist barrel is #1 and the most accurate load is a low pressure sabot loaded with a 200 gr. 451.dia Hornady XTP. #2 is The Thompson cheapshot sabots in 240 gr. lead and #3 is the Hornady Pennsylvania Conical 240 gr. I shoot only FFg black powder, it is more accurate and consistant than any of the modern substitutes,but it is a pain to clean. Start your load around 80 grns and work up, my rifle shoots best at 85 grns. I have NEVER got anything heavier than a 240 grain bullet shoot accuratley past 50 yards in a slow twist barrel designed for patch and ball. The first load mentioned will group in a pie plate at 100 yards the other two will do the pie plate at 75 yards and all will group into a couple of inches at 50 yards. You're not going to make a slow twist cap and ball shoot with a 1:24 twist inline it just aint gonna happen. But you can make it fine woods rifle for under 100 yard shots.

 

[JoeTheDeer]

More Accuracy

I made 6 shots today at 50 yards with 300 gr xtp bullets in sabots at 90 gr of powder.

1st. dead on cept 2 inches right.
2nd not on target or backboard, 2 ft x 3ft miss.
3rd. 4 inches high but dead on.
4th. 8 in high 3 inches right.
5th 6 inches high but dead on.
6th. 2 inches high dead on.

Basically I had 3 inch group that was 1 inch right and 3 inches high at 50 yards.

My TC Renegade has a long tigger guard and I was letting it hit the sand bags as I fired. I think this may be the cause of my wild bullets.

I will buy some new bullets and caps tomorrow. I also have some low pressure sabots and 185 grain 45s at home. Dropping the charge to 80 grains of powder too.

Thanks again.

 

[J-Bar]

round ball group

Check the photo on post #19 on the previous thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=630457

...and there are folks on this forum that can do better.

 

[josmund]

I have a TC Hawken in the 50 and Rene in a 54. Both 1/48 twist.

For the 50, Hornady PA Conicals, 240 grain, shoot great. I also have shot the Buffalo Bullet version of the same style.

75 Grains of T7 which would be 80-85 of Pyro.

Might be worth a shot as they work well for me.

 

[JoeTheDeer]

PAs

Here is the link for PAs. http://www.hornady.com/store/50-Cal-240-gr-PA-Conical/

I like the look of these. I am cost conscious, aka poor, so 50 for 15 bucks sounds real good.

Last night I spent my budget for the bp season and then some. I went to Gander Mountain and bought Hornady 50 cal 300 gr FPB bullets for $20, TC Super Glide Sabots for $9., and some more caps ($6).

Those fpb bullets were $1.30 each and now I don't want to shoot them.lol.

I have a variety of 45 bullets at home, mostly 185 grain match bullets. I want to try some of these in those sabots.

Down to 80 gr powder for today's shooting.

 

[josmund]

$15 for 50 is another benefit of the PA's.

At that cost you don't mind plinking with them and as we all know, the more you shoot, the better chance you have to hit your target when it counts.

 

[JoeTheDeer]

PA's

I will try to find some PAs locally this afternoon.

I shot two groups of 3 inches at 50 yards this am using 70 grains of pyro, TC yellow sabot, and a copper jacketed match grade .451 Hornady pistol bullet at 185 grains.

This is a little better but not enough to make me confident/happy.

The copper jacket was right thick on those bullets. I also have some 185 gr all lead semi wad cutters that I could try. They also slide in easily compared to others that I need to hammer on.

The saga continues.

 

[arcticap]

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