Teen suspect in PS3 robbery killed

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razorburn

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061204/ap_on_re_us/playstation_theft

WILMINGTON, N.C. - A young man accused of robbing a fellow college student of two new Playstation 3 video game consoles was shot and killed — possibly while holding a game controller, his roommate said — by officers sent to arrest him.

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Peyton Strickland, 18, was killed Friday at a house he shared with three roommates, Sheriff Sid Causey said.

"If this boy would've come to the door, opened the door, we probably wouldn't be talking," the sheriff said Sunday.

Roommate Mike Rhoton said Strickland was unarmed when he got up from playing a Tiger Woods golf game but may have been holding a controller when he went to the door as officers bashed it in. Strickland's dog, a German shepherd, also was shot to death.

The sheriff said Strickland was shot by members of a specially trained team who went to help university officers serve arrest warrants. Causey said officers considered the arrest a high-risk situation.

"Anytime that someone beats a person severely and commits an armed robbery, I certainly would consider him a risk and a danger," Causey said.

Authorities promised Monday to fully investigate the shooting. "No one is above the law and no one is beneath its protection," District Attorney Ben David said. He declined to discuss details of the case.

The State Bureau of Investigation is examining the case and three deputies on the team were placed on paid leave, normal practice whenever officers fire their weapons, Causey said.

Arrest warrants alleged that Strickland, a student at Cape Fear Community College, and a University of North Carolina-Wilmington student stole two PlayStation units from another UNC-Wilmington student Nov. 17, the day the consoles were introduced.

The sheriff said the robbery victim waited three days in line to buy the units for $641 each at a Wal-Mart. He was unloading them at his campus apartment when one man beat him to the ground while another took the consoles, Causey said.

The second man named in the warrants was arrested at another address and released on bail Saturday, authorities said.

The nationwide introduction of the Sony game system was marked by rowdy crowds and store stampedes. One buyer waiting in line at a Connecticut store was shot by robbers

I just found this shocking. A swat team deployed against a teenager who stole another boys playstation. Kicked down his door and shot him and his dog. He was unarmed, and no mention of any threats against anybody. He was holding a video game controller. The sheriffs rebuttal is that he should've come to the door. Even if he didn't come to the door, I think the use for lethal force against a non threatening, unarmed boy is way over the line. Yes, he had beaten someone earlier and robbed him. He was unarmed then, and there is no indication that he would be armed or in any way a significant danger during the raid.
 
Sorry. The article was posted today and I didn't see any other thread, thought it was new news.
 
poor little doggie

the dog's owner had it coming.

All the cretin had to do was not go around beating people up.

You can die from some of the beat downs these gang bangers hand out.

They like to kick their victims in the head.

I only feel sorry for the dog and the cops that had to take the skell out.
 
You don't shoot unless your life is in immediate danger. You can't just say someone had it coming because they broke a law. You break a law, you get put on trial. Maybe next time someone like you does a rolling stop at a stop sign, and in response a swat team is sent out in to your house and shoots you and your dog, we can all applaud the move. After all, you had it coming. You can kill someone by pulling out in front of them. All you had to do was to obey the law. I'd only feel sorry for the poor swat team who had to take your law-breaking butt out.

This is the exact same logic you're using. Do you see how your logic is faulty? It's wrong to develop a jaded view of all police actions, cop bashing, from a stereotype or a bad experience. But this sort of refusal to acknowledge when the authorities have screwed up, cop worship in any situation at any cost is just as bad. It's honestly scary. I expect next time a story about a cop raping girls comes out, people like you be there to offer your support about how she deserves it for wearing clothes that are too tight and revealing. Also, she had a history of traffic infractions and was probably up to no good anyway....
 
About 3-4 years ago a gent was shot a bunch of times by Shreveport Police. The deceased chose a really, really bad time to point a cell phone at the investigating officers.

salty.
 
just a guess

my shepherd was very protective
wonder if the dog didn't allow them to attack master. thats all it would take to trigger a tragedy. remember shooting the dog is what got the rubby ridge carnage started
 
1. He was a robbery suspect. I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect violence from the suspect.

2. How does SWAT come into this? I see no mention of it. Was it in the other thread? Not every "specially trained team" is a tactical team (though this one could have been).

3. The comments by the sheriff, "The sheriffs rebuttal is that he should've come to the door", are not given in context. The article, and the OP, make it sound like he was confronted with the fact that his deputies shot an unarmed man and said, "well he should have opened the door." In fact he could have said quite a bit more and almost certainly did. He was correct, however. The deputies had a lawful warrant for his arrest. If the occupant of the house does not open the door, the deputies are coming in. He should have opened it and surrendered. It avoids #4.

4. This is a classic "what is that in the robbery suspect's hand?" situation. If you wait too long to identify it, you can die. Gun, knife, cell phone, game controller, TV remote control...you have about a half of a second to figure it out. And you better be right...because if you're not, someone is getting shot.

Was it a tragic error? Seemingly so. Is it worth the level of outrage we seem to be spending on it? Probably not. If a gun owner shoots an intruder in his house, claiming that something in the BG's hand looked like a weapon, we would demand that it be ruled a good shoot. If a cop shoots someone, claiming that something in the BG's hand looked like a weapon, while serving an arrest warrant for robbery, the reaction of some people is to decide, pretty much a priori, that the cops are to blame.

Mike
 
This morning's radio reports, that web postings of the suspects (photos shown with guns) helped decide the SWAT callout, and perhaps increased the level of force used in the raid.

Still and all, the basic crime being investigated here is armed violent robbery. The suspect shot had a previous felony assault.

Unlike the article that came out of Florida recently, where simply the existence of CCW on the part of the suspect, dictated paramilitary tactics for a nonviolent drug offense. In that case, most (not all) members agreed the force level was unwarranted.

We should be vigilant to cases where gun-phobia alone creates an unwarranted violent response by police, to a minor infraction. This case is not the best example, perhaps.

Posting internet photos of yourself with guns (as many here have), still can, and will, be misused to portray you as a more violent person, if you run afoul of the law.
 
There is no doubt this man needed to be investagated, arrested, tried and if found guilty sent to jail. However he will not get a fair trial because he is dead.
Whether he was guilty or innocent He had a right to trial.
This is yet another UNARMED person shot by the police.

When I joined the Army in 74, I volunteered for combat arms (Infantry) and I knew that in the course of my duty I might be killed. I knew the job was dangerous.
If a police officer can not do the job of arresting criminals without shooting unarmed suspects, whether out of fear or poor training, they need to find another line of work.
Shooting UNARMED people is unacceptable.
 
Posting internet photos of yourself with guns (as many here have), still can, and will, be misused to portray you as a more violent person, if you run afoul of the law.

Of course, there's a difference between a photo of someone smiling and properly holding a weapon safely at a range...and a bunch of irresponsible-looking people holding weapons dangerously, posing like cheap gangbanger thugs.

The latter WOULD make nearly any reasonable person a bit more nervous.
 
After the Amadu Diallo (sp?) shooting in NY NYPD invited reporters to the Range to try the FATS machine to show them the type of situations police officers encounter. Every reporter was killed by the bad guy or shot everyone with a wallet, cell phone, etc. However due to the left wing slant on the press and police there were only a few reporters who actually reported this eye opener they received.

There are tragic mistakes made by police no doubt. Many of them are stupid mistakes. The problem is the thousands of things police do correctly rarely get any recognition. I think if FATS was a requirement for a CCW there would be a lot less critics.
 
Razorburn said:
<long winded angsty rant>

I think you've completely missed the point of Gunsmith's argument. Pulling out in front of someone in traffic and wearing skimpy clothes are not in any way similar to Assualt, Robbery, Battery, Theft, Rape ....

You see what the kid did here was wrong, on a lot of levels. Let's see if we can track what I like to call the Idiot Continuum.
How to get dead in 11 easy steps:
1. Plan a robbery
2. Get a friend to help
3. Execute plan as defined in step one.
4. Add battery to plan, improv style.
5. Leave enough evidence that you are identified.
6. Ignore the fact that you have been caught by the uniformed and self identified men pounding on your door demanding you show yourself.
7. Pretend that by acting like nobody is home they will go away.
8. Do not remove your 70 pound gaurdian from the scene.
9. Wait for said men to kick in your door.
10. Stand in the middle of a room with an out of the ordinary device in your hand while the now adrenaline fueled and very scared men enter your home.
11. Get shot dead, just before or after your dog.

See, this isn't "cop worship" anymore than it's cop bashing. The thug needed killing, that's true, it's also beside the point. The cops didn't kill him because he so richly deserved it. They did so, from what I can tell, because they were in fear for thier lives.

I won't kill a man over property, I also won't cry for the perp when someone else does. Nor will I condemn the killer for having a different "line in the sand" than I do. That's CLEARLY not what happened here.
 
This shows...

That we need more laws passed to 'help' us.

Like banning those damn playstations. That would solve everything.

We need a PSB!
 
There are tragic mistakes made by police no doubt. Many of them are stupid mistakes. The problem is the thousands of things police do correctly rarely get any recognition. I think if FATS was a requirement for a CCW there would be a lot less critics.
Heck. I think FATS, MILO (the more modern equivalent) or force on force should be a requirement for journalists and juries.

I mean, worst case scenario: I get to light up a local reporter with a paintball gun. Even if he or she learns nothing, I still got to light up a local reporter with a paintball gun. :D

Mike
 
Yesterday, 03:27 PM #19
lurkersince03
Senior Member


Join Date: 06-12-06
Posts: 113

Guilty until proven innocent. For the police, and for the kid. He was charged, not convicted. And yes, it looks bad, and you're free to come to your own conclusions about both sides of the story. But you have to ask yourself if, given you were in a similar situation, you'd want a jury full of people who jumped to the same conclusions some of you guys do.
 
The question about why they took extra help with them keeps being asked. Other than the fact that he was wanted for a violent robbery, there's this...

"Strickland had been scheduled to appear in court last Thursday on a felony charge from August of assault causing serious injury." - The News & Observer

The guy had to have his jaw wired shut for 6 weeks IIRC.

Anybody determined if those facebook photos with the guns were really him?

John
 
The cops didn't kill him because he so richly deserved it. They did so, from what I can tell, because they were in fear for thier lives.
Except that items 1-5 of your scenerio assume guilt that should've/would've been determined at a trial. If he wasn't guiltly then your scenerio becomes armed intruders were justified in storming an innocent man's house and killing him because the intruders feared he was prepared to defend his house.
If a gun owner shoots an intruder in his house, claiming that something in the BG's hand looked like a weapon, we would demand that it be ruled a good shoot. If a cop shoots someone, claiming that something in the BG's hand looked like a weapon, while serving an arrest warrant for robbery, the reaction of some people is to decide, pretty much a priori, that the cops are to blame.
The fundamental difference is there are vastly different assessments of threat. A homeowner sees someone in his house he knows with an absolute certainty that he didn't ask this person to be there. Their very presence is an active threat. The homeowner is probably alone, in his pajamas, with any help several minutes away (if he's lucky). The police on the other hand, are going to a house where they presume a threat may be present, but that's only valid if it's the right house, the right person, the suspect is actually armed or capable of mounting an effective attack, wants to put up a fight, and is the actual person who committed the crime. The police have the advantage of surprise, and are going in heavily armed and armored as a mutually supporting team. I don't think it's all that out of order to ask that they be held to a slightly higher standard than Joe Blow in his bunny slippers. And if the threat was that severe, why not just wait until the guy headed for class or work and wrap him up in the yard? Did they think he was robbing someone in his own house that night?
 
Except that items 1-5 of your scenerio assume guilt that should've/would've been determined at a trial. If he wasn't guiltly then your scenerio becomes armed intruders were justified in storming an innocent man's house and killing him because the intruders feared he was prepared to defend his house.
Absurd. You've created a catch-22. The only way for him to stand trial is to be arrested, and in order to arrest him you need to assume things that should be determined by trial. Even the most narrow reading of the Constitution provides for the State to go out and arrest people in order to bring them before a judge and jury for trial.
The fundamental difference is there are vastly different assessments of threat. A homeowner sees someone in his house he knows with an absolute certainty that he didn't ask this person to be there. Their very presence is an active threat. The homeowner is probably alone, in his pajamas, with any help several minutes away (if he's lucky). The police on the other hand, are going to a house where they presume a threat may be present, but that's only valid if it's the right house, the right person, the suspect is actually armed or capable of mounting an effective attack, wants to put up a fight, and is the actual person who committed the crime. The police have the advantage of surprise, and are going in heavily armed and armored as a mutually supporting team. I don't think it's all that out of order to ask that they be held to a slightly higher standard than Joe Blow in his bunny slippers.
Actually, I fail to see why either one should be held to a higher standard than the other. The force was either justified, or it was not. The cop or the homeowner either percieved a threat, or he did not, and that perception was reasonable, or it was not.

I think that non-LEO RKBA types are very comfortable with the fact that they can shoot someone in their home and claim self defense...hey, his mere presence was a threat! (Try that in court, sometime) or that they can, in public, practice threat awareness and avoidance and only engage when lethal force is a comparatively easy choice. What so many fail to realize is that when they see a guy acting goofy/odd/threatening and they call a cop to respond, that cop has to do the thing that the caller can't or won't do, which is go over and confront the guy and, possibly, force the shoot/don't-shoot decision that the CCW holder or homeowner doesn't really have to make.

Back in this scenario, if the guy is in your home at 0-dark-thirty with a PS3 controller in his hand, I think you could build a solid self defense case for the homeowner. His mere presence was certainly suspicious, he had an odd object in his hand, that's a potentially lethal-force scenario, right there. The police were required, by law (try telling a judge you don't feel like serving a felony warrant. Try telling a victim that you don't feel like going to catch the guy who robbed him), to go arrest this guy, and when they did, he had a PS3 controller in his hand. They knew he had a history of robbery, they (apparently) knew him to be armed. Seems like the shoot, while not "good" in the layman's definition of the term, is at least an understandable error.
And if the threat was that severe, why not just wait until the guy headed for class or work and wrap him up in the yard? Did they think he was robbing someone in his own house that night?
Now, the reasons for going into a house to arrest someone are manifold, and usally pretty straight forward. The main reason is that if you think he might be armed or violent, you have a duty to take him into custody in the safest possible manner for everyone, to include the public. Attempting to grab robbers in the open results in shootouts, car chases, foot pursuits and hostage situations. To be fair, attempting to arrest them in their houses can do the same thing (ain't nothin' 100% but Jesus), but it is actually usually far safer to do it that way than to try and go all cowboy on the street. You have a startlingly small number of warrant services that go awry, but I can tell you that the likelihood of successfully and safely apprehending a suspect in the open is really not that hot.

What happens invariably is this:

When the arrest goes well (in public, in a house), no one cares. Heck, no one knows.

When the arrest goes bad, people say:

Good Lord. Why kick down his door? You ended up shooting him for nothing! Why not arrest him when he left his house in the morning?

-or-

Good Lord. Why try to pick him up in public? You just placed a playground full of kids, the motoring public, every pedestrian on the sidewalk, and the guy he eventually took hostage in the convenience store at grave risk! Why don't you wait until he is home, kick down his door, and arrest him when he has no way to run?

Mike
 
junyo said:
Except that items 1-5 of your scenerio assume guilt that should've/would've been determined at a trial. If he wasn't guiltly then your scenerio becomes armed intruders were justified in storming an innocent man's house and killing him because the intruders feared he was prepared to defend his house.

You are sort of correct. My outline does in fact assume guilt to the degree that absolutely nothing I've read says the guy didn't do it. However, if he was innocent, all he had to do was answer the door and the whole ugly mess could have been avoided.

Also, I'd like to point out that police officers acting in accordance with the law are NOT, I repeat, NOT intruders. Certainly not after annoucing that they are police officers on scene to serve a warrant.

I firmly agree it would have been optimal and preferable for the whole thing to get sorted out in court rather than the morgue. Our dead convict, decided to roll his dice. House wins.

Do I like the idea that the kid is dead over a PS3? Not at all. Do I blame the arresting officers or second guess their judgement in this specific case based on presented evidence? Certainly not.
 
Absurd. You've created a catch-22. The only way for him to stand trial is to be arrested, and in order to arrest him you need to assume things that should be determined by trial. Even the most narrow reading of the Constitution provides for the State to go out and arrest people in order to bring them before a judge and jury for trial.
But they didn't arrest him, did they? They shot an, as far as any of us know, innocent man, playing a videogame in his own home. Regardless of the arrest powers of the state, regardless of a reasonable supposition that the suspect is in fact a criminal, the presumption of innocence lays with the suspect until he's convicted of a crime, and it behooves the people affecting the arrest to remember that.
Back in this scenario, if the guy is in your home at 0-dark-thirty with a PS3 controller in his hand, I think you could build a solid self defense case for the homeowner. His mere presence was certainly suspicious, he had an odd object in his hand, that's a potentially lethal-force scenario, right there. The police were required, by law (try telling a judge you don't feel like serving a felony warrant. Try telling a victim that you don't feel like going to catch the guy who robbed him), to go arrest this guy, and when they did, he had a PS3 controller in his hand. They knew he had a history of robbery, they (apparently) knew him to be armed. Seems like the shoot, while not "good" in the layman's definition of the term, is at least an understandable error.
It's unfortunate that you can't grasp the difference between a situation where you know with a reasonable degree of certainty that a person is commiting a crime and one where it's secondhand conjecture. But as you said, either force is justified or it's not. A homeowner has a binary decision set when confronting an intruder - fight or flight; everything else is tactics.

Regardless of how you slice it, police are in a dangerous situation by their own choice. They could chose another method of apprehending the suspect, another time, or for that, matter another line of work with less risk. I can't imagination that explaining to a judge or telling the robbery victim that you're going to hold off a couple of hours on the arrest was a more difficult task than delivering the news to the suspect's parents that their son was dead. But that was a choice someone made.

I'll reiterate, objectively, the situations are miles apart. The homeowner has a bad situation thrust upon him and limited resources with which to deal with them. The police are in the situation because of deliberate choices, with a vast amount of resource to draw from. That's why the standard should be higher.
When the arrest goes bad, people say:

Good Lord. Why kick down his door? You ended up shooting him for nothing! Why not arrest him when he left his house in the morning?
In every business people have to manage perception, and people always concentrate on failures rather than success: the old saying goes something like 'Success has many fathers but failure is an orphan.' So police work is only different in the fact that more of the mistakes tend to be lethal. But the problem is it's not enough to say "Oh well, it usually works, but sometimes stuff happens." And it's difficult to grasp how this is the best/safest method of doing this since it keeps getting people killed. If somebody did an actual analysis of this situation and said taking this guy down this way has the highest probability of success (defined as an arrest with no injuries to suspect, officers, or bystanders), then fine, we should be able to see that, see the decision matrix, and understand all the factors being juggled. But a lot of the problem is the perception given overall is that the SOP is the SOP because the failures have no meaningful cost to anyone involved in writing or implementing the policy and the only critical factor is officer safety.
However, if he was innocent, all he had to do was answer the door and the whole ugly mess could have been avoided.
And from what I've heard he attempted to answer the door, only with a PS2 controller in his hand. Or even if he didn't, is the rule now that in my own house I have to promptly run to the door with empty hands, otherwise I'm liable to be shot? The inevitable reply is "Then don't steal video game consoles..." and my point is for all any of us know he didn't (just saving time). You're not allowed to shoot someone on the probabbility of them being a punk and maybe having an object in their hands. I don't answer the door after a hard day at work, and if I do, there's a really huge probability that there's a remote or a game controller in my hand. Based on the chain of logic being presented, on what I've just said the police are pretty justified in killing me should they ever feel the need to drop by. That I can't fathom.
 
So... basically, given the scenario, there was no chance for the alleged criminal to get out of that house without being shot.

I can't blame the police, but I can't blame the victim, either.

I believe the laws need to be fixed, or things will only get worse.
 
but it is actually usually far safer to do it that way than to try and go all cowboy on the street. You have a startlingly small number of warrant services that go awry, but I can tell you that the likelihood of successfully and safely apprehending a suspect in the open is really not that hot.
Just out of curiosity Coronach, could you cite some instances where such arrests "in the open" went awry?

thanks, tp
 
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