I am looking to buy a Dragunov rifle in 7.62x54. What are my options? What makes are out there and what are the pros/cons of each? What is the deal with PSLs and how do they differ from authentic Dragunovs? Is the difference between a PSL and a genuine Dragunov worth the price difference? Thanks.
Tell me about Dragunovs
- Thread starter marineman
- Start date
- Status
PSL = Scaled up AK = Not Dragunov
Your options are hunt for a real Dragunov for $1500 at the low end (Tigr, SVD costs a lot more) or to buy a PSL for $700 from AIM surplus. The PSL is different from the Dragunov in pretty much every way other than they both are semi automatic 7.62x54r rifles that share some cosmetic similarity. I have a Dragunov Tigr and it's a really great rifle but not everyone will be willing to shell out the $, it's probably not worth the $ either. Much better off with a nice AR-10 or PTR-91 with a scope in my estimation. The PSL seems like a great value for the money, particularly given the current market where plain jane AKs are going for $550+. What other semi auto shooting a full power cartridge are you going to find for $700?
For more:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_5_51/ai_n13469625/
Your options are hunt for a real Dragunov for $1500 at the low end (Tigr, SVD costs a lot more) or to buy a PSL for $700 from AIM surplus. The PSL is different from the Dragunov in pretty much every way other than they both are semi automatic 7.62x54r rifles that share some cosmetic similarity. I have a Dragunov Tigr and it's a really great rifle but not everyone will be willing to shell out the $, it's probably not worth the $ either. Much better off with a nice AR-10 or PTR-91 with a scope in my estimation. The PSL seems like a great value for the money, particularly given the current market where plain jane AKs are going for $550+. What other semi auto shooting a full power cartridge are you going to find for $700?
For more:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_5_51/ai_n13469625/
WardenWolf
member
There's also NDM-86's in .308. These are Chinese Dragunov clones. Their performance is identical to their Russian counterparts, although the finish isn't as good. If you can afford one, though, you can afford to refinish it. The Tigers are not usually on the same level as military SVD's. They lack an adjustable gas system, so they are less capable of firing the heavy loads. They also have a shorter barrel and lack a muzzle brake, resulting in very hard recoil. Many shooters report they also lack accuracy compared to the military model. There are a few custom-ordered Tigers that have most military features (longer barrel and brake), and these do shoot better. You're still better off with an NDM-86, though. At least 150 grain .308 ammo is common, which is the preferred ammo for these guns.
MHBushmaster
Member
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2006
- Messages
- 175
PSL's have thin barrels. Great for carrying the rifle around due to its lighter weight, problem is with sustained fire. After 3-5 rounds, the groups open up if you fire "rapidly", say 1 shot every second or so.
Not a big deal breaker for me. My PSL shoots consistently 1.25 MOA at 100 meters shooting 10 shot groups. 3-5 shot groups are right at 1 MOA.
I use Czech light ball as it works great in my PSL and I have lot of it. It is corrosive which necessitates extra cleaning which I don't mind.
PSL's have stamped receivers and should only use light ball (147-155gr bullets). Steer clear of the 200gr and 180gr yellow tip heavy ball ammo as it will excessively beat up your PSL. Silver tip or no color tipped bullets means light ball which is good to go.
PSL's take AK fire control groups, so you can theoretically replace the 2 stage trigger that comes in the PSL with a Tapco G2 or other aftermarket AK trigger.
PSL's have a bolt hold open mechanism and the bolt will stay open and not close after the last shot in the mag. It will also stay locked back once the mag is removed unlike some AK mags that will just hold open the bolt on the last shot through the mag but will just go forward into battery after the empty mags is removed: not on the psl, it will stay open/back.
They are fun rifles and usually come with 2-ten round mags, a cleaning kit, and sling and ammo mag pouch that can hold 4 mags.
Not a big deal breaker for me. My PSL shoots consistently 1.25 MOA at 100 meters shooting 10 shot groups. 3-5 shot groups are right at 1 MOA.
I use Czech light ball as it works great in my PSL and I have lot of it. It is corrosive which necessitates extra cleaning which I don't mind.
PSL's have stamped receivers and should only use light ball (147-155gr bullets). Steer clear of the 200gr and 180gr yellow tip heavy ball ammo as it will excessively beat up your PSL. Silver tip or no color tipped bullets means light ball which is good to go.
PSL's take AK fire control groups, so you can theoretically replace the 2 stage trigger that comes in the PSL with a Tapco G2 or other aftermarket AK trigger.
PSL's have a bolt hold open mechanism and the bolt will stay open and not close after the last shot in the mag. It will also stay locked back once the mag is removed unlike some AK mags that will just hold open the bolt on the last shot through the mag but will just go forward into battery after the empty mags is removed: not on the psl, it will stay open/back.
They are fun rifles and usually come with 2-ten round mags, a cleaning kit, and sling and ammo mag pouch that can hold 4 mags.
WardenWolf
member
The PSL fire control group isn't quite the same as that of a standard AK. It's a bit larger. The only aftermarket trigger I know of is the Red Star Arms adjustable trigger. They have a version specifically for the PSL. However, I've never found a reason to want to change my FCG on my PSL. The trigger is fine. The thin barrel isn't really a drawback, in my opinion. It vents heat faster, and is fine for a practical rifle. If you're going to be hunting, you won't be firing that many rounds, either.
The Tapco FCG, even if it works in a PSL, is absolutely unsuited for use in a hunting or target rifle. I have one in my converted Saiga .223. If you perform a target pull on the trigger, the gun will bump fire every single time. I use my Saiga for hunting, so this is unacceptable. I'm now needing to install a muzzle brake on my Saiga to stop it from doing that. I would never recommend that FCG for this style of rifle.
I looked into the idea of plugging my 10-round PSL magazine for hunting. The PSL mag has a hole on the back to let you check ammo levels. A 10/32 screw with 2 nuts on it would plug the magazine to 4 rounds, or 5 if I modified my follower very slightly. Since 2 nuts make a screw non-removable from the screw head, it would satisfy the requirements of most states that the plug be unable to be removed without disassembling the magazine.
The Tapco FCG, even if it works in a PSL, is absolutely unsuited for use in a hunting or target rifle. I have one in my converted Saiga .223. If you perform a target pull on the trigger, the gun will bump fire every single time. I use my Saiga for hunting, so this is unacceptable. I'm now needing to install a muzzle brake on my Saiga to stop it from doing that. I would never recommend that FCG for this style of rifle.
I looked into the idea of plugging my 10-round PSL magazine for hunting. The PSL mag has a hole on the back to let you check ammo levels. A 10/32 screw with 2 nuts on it would plug the magazine to 4 rounds, or 5 if I modified my follower very slightly. Since 2 nuts make a screw non-removable from the screw head, it would satisfy the requirements of most states that the plug be unable to be removed without disassembling the magazine.
Gunnerpalace
Member
As far as I know the only dragunovs in the US are the one imported by KBI in the 90's (now Charles Daly).
Tigrs could be count as dragunovs I don't know though.
Tigrs could be count as dragunovs I don't know though.
rangerruck
Member
the psl is a good deal, so is the saiga, but a real nice dragunov will be very nice, and shoot well, and a russian tigr, well, I 've seen many of these pull moa groups at 100 with a 4x scope. but they will cost you...
alpinemike
Member
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2008
- Messages
- 28
If you can find a real Dragunov for 1500.....just drop every thing and buy it! But you won't find it!! Any type of drag, Chinese, Tigr any of the true SVD types are worth more like 3000$$ now. The 1500 dollar days were like two or three years ago.
Also, the PSL uses lightball because its a semi auto. not just because of the stamped rcvr. They recommend light ball for SVDs (dragunov) as well. Drags have milled rcvr but being semi auto there is concern for the bolt mechanism. heavy ammo makes heavy recoil and can damage the action. disclaimer: All things I have read. not from personal experience.
over all.... a PSL is WAY more for the money! If any one can post a link to a dragunov for as little as twice the price of the psl .....do it. but we wont see that link will we? a nice drag of ANY kind will run no less than 3000.00$$
Also, the PSL uses lightball because its a semi auto. not just because of the stamped rcvr. They recommend light ball for SVDs (dragunov) as well. Drags have milled rcvr but being semi auto there is concern for the bolt mechanism. heavy ammo makes heavy recoil and can damage the action. disclaimer: All things I have read. not from personal experience.
over all.... a PSL is WAY more for the money! If any one can post a link to a dragunov for as little as twice the price of the psl .....do it. but we wont see that link will we? a nice drag of ANY kind will run no less than 3000.00$$
Last edited:
The Dragonuvs have an adjustable gas system and you can shoot the heavier rounds through it without fear of damaging the receiver. The PSL is a decent gun for the money but is a clone, the Dragonuv is the real deal. That being said I think a person would be crazy to spend $3k on a dragouv when you can buy M1A or garrand or AR10 or PTR91 or FAL or FNAR for less.
WardenWolf
member
The Russian military Dragunov does, yes. However, the Tiger has a fixed gas system. I'm pretty sure the Chinese one has a fixed gas system, too, although they're mostly .308 so this is not a problem. 150 grain and lighter .308 ammo is common as heck, and it's all non-corrosive. Because of this, it is probably the ultimate Dragunov.
bobotech
Member
Wow, you are one lucky SOB to have found a real TIGR for 800 dollars (mag or not).
Amazing deal, congrats!
Amazing deal, congrats!
Olympus
Member
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2008
- Messages
- 4,212
I guess I don't understand what makes them cost so much? I find it difficult to believe that they will shoot any better than a modern bolt action rifle which can be purchased for much less. Is it mainly the history that makes the Drag cost so much?
VirgilCaine
Member
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2005
- Messages
- 617
Rarity, I would suppose. And they're cool, IMO.
I don't know the whole history but they were banned from import a while back so the supply is limited to what's in the country. The receiver is milled rather than stamped which makes it bit nicer than the stamped PSLs/Saigas on the market right now but other than that I don't see too much real difference. The receiver on mine has all the Izmash markings similar to what the Saigas coming in now have. If production cost were the only factor I would guess they would be just a few hundred bucks more than a .308 to account for the nicer furniture, scope and milled receiver.
Grantman
Member
A full barrel length Tigr is an SVD, from the SVD production line from the same factory minus a few tack-ons – pinned flash hider (although it is an option on Tigrs), iron site marking to 300m instead of 1200m, and adjustable gas system. In other words they are for all intents and purposes fundamentally the same rifle with a different stamp on the receiver.
See flash hiders on these Tigrs http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/tigr.shtml
The tigrs in the US are not representative of tigr's worldwide - at least in today’s times. For example I doubt European tigr purchasers are opting for the 530mm barrel option given they can get the original SVD length barrel with the original 1:320mm twist the SVD was originally designed for. Here in NZ for example the 530mm option simply isn’t offered.
About the SVD gas system. The adjustable gas system on the SVD is designed to allow the user to open up the gas flow in situations in where extreme conditions and constant firing may have fouled the system excessively. Thus the Tigr merely doesn't have the option to open up the gas system to a second position (not that I can imagine anyone would ever need to) and can fire any load the virtually identical SVD can.
See flash hiders on these Tigrs http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/tigr.shtml
The tigrs in the US are not representative of tigr's worldwide - at least in today’s times. For example I doubt European tigr purchasers are opting for the 530mm barrel option given they can get the original SVD length barrel with the original 1:320mm twist the SVD was originally designed for. Here in NZ for example the 530mm option simply isn’t offered.
About the SVD gas system. The adjustable gas system on the SVD is designed to allow the user to open up the gas flow in situations in where extreme conditions and constant firing may have fouled the system excessively. Thus the Tigr merely doesn't have the option to open up the gas system to a second position (not that I can imagine anyone would ever need to) and can fire any load the virtually identical SVD can.
Gunnerpalace
Member
So Grantman could I call a Tigr for sale here in the US be called a Dragunov without getting bashed?
Grantman
Member
Absolutely. A Tigr is 100% pure Dragunov, it's just a marginally different flavour than the SVD.
Just as a note (and I'm sure anyone reading much about Dragunovs has heard this a ton of times), the PSL on the other hand while built to serve basically the same purpose as the Dragunov isn't a Dragunov. A Kalashnikov would be a closer description.
sharpshooter74
Member
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2007
- Messages
- 106
Ok, I have one of each and there are some VERY drastic differences between them. The PSL is a good fun shooter. Not a precision rifle but a good DMR. You can hit man sized targets our quite far with it.
The Chinese guns are the best you can get for realism without going bankrupt. They have the lightening cuts on the recievers, but lack the dimples on the rear of the receiver cover. There is some speculation that the earliest of these were actually restamped Russian guns. That has never been verified, and this one is a very early import and the Nornico markings are crystal clear. I have seen these go for as high as $5,000 with the complete kit but most often around $3,500.
This is an original Russian SVD. There are rumored to be only 100 of these in the US. I recently saw one sell for just under $10,000. Sure it may be crazy but these are more rare than most of the transferable MG types out there. And those fetch prices well in excess of $50,000. It is not about it being a precision rifle, it is about owning a REAL Russian SVD. And with the right ammo it really is a precision rifle. It was purpose built for it, and has it's very own special rounds to squeeze out the extra preformance. You can get MOA groups out of it out to 500M.
HTH.
The Chinese guns are the best you can get for realism without going bankrupt. They have the lightening cuts on the recievers, but lack the dimples on the rear of the receiver cover. There is some speculation that the earliest of these were actually restamped Russian guns. That has never been verified, and this one is a very early import and the Nornico markings are crystal clear. I have seen these go for as high as $5,000 with the complete kit but most often around $3,500.
This is an original Russian SVD. There are rumored to be only 100 of these in the US. I recently saw one sell for just under $10,000. Sure it may be crazy but these are more rare than most of the transferable MG types out there. And those fetch prices well in excess of $50,000. It is not about it being a precision rifle, it is about owning a REAL Russian SVD. And with the right ammo it really is a precision rifle. It was purpose built for it, and has it's very own special rounds to squeeze out the extra preformance. You can get MOA groups out of it out to 500M.
HTH.
Grantman
Member
seems like a long time ago now, but several months after buying my Tigr I made a set of vids on it and shot some groupings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btGRU4TqXJM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btGRU4TqXJM
- Status
