Tell me about the .25-35. Why is it not faster?

[roscoe]

Looking over the .25-35 loads makes me wonder: why it is not a faster round? For example, the 160-grain .30-30 LeverEvolution round is 2400 fps (from their test barrel), yet the 110-grain .25-35 is only 25 fps faster. Since the .25-35 is based on the .30-30, but trades away bullet size for case capacity, why is it not a much faster round than .30-30? Even reloaders don't seem to make it any hotter, despite the fact that maximum pressure is higher in .25-35.

There must be something going on that I can't see.

 

[Goosey]

I wondered this also. Nowadays the standard .25-35 is advertised as 30 ft/sec faster, 117@2230 vs 170@2200 for the .30-30, but in the early days it was actually the reverse, with the 117 gr .25-35 being 30 ft/sec slower in factory ballistic tables. Which was puzzling. According to Whelen (1918) standard pressure for .25-35 was 32-34K, and for the .30-30, 36-39K. He shows factory-level loads for the .25-35 and .30-30 making 26,000 and 26,500 psi respectively. Loads at approximately 2300 ft/sec using the standard weight bullets he has listed at 37K psi for the .25-35 and 39K psi for the .30-30.

SAAMI using different pressure testing methods says .30-30 max is 42000 and the .25-35, 44000. They say in their performance standards that at 15 feet, .25-35 with 117 gr bullet goes 2,210 ft/sec with 37000 CUP, and .30-30 with 170 gr bullet goes 2,180 ft/sec with 38000 CUP.

Picking some of the same powders for each, Hodgdon has these velocities with their maximum loads of:

BLC2
.30-30, 170 gr, 2227 ft/sec, 34700 CUP
.25-35, 117 gr, 2327 ft/sec, 35800 CUP

H4895
.30-30, 170 gr, 2138 ft/sec, 35200 CUP
.25-35, 117 gr, 2168 ft/sec, 36000 CUP

H335
.30-30, 170 gr, 2086 ft/sec, 36300 CUP
.25-35, 117 gr, 2174 ft/sec, 35900 CUP


If they list the 170 gr .30-30 at 2200 ft/sec, I would expect the 117 gr .25-35, if at the same pressure, to be listed somewhere around 2400 ft/sec.

 

[Don McDowell]

Reduced case capacity smaller diameter thru the body, makes the max pressures spike quicker .

 

[Laphroaig]

Since the .25-35 is based on the .30-30, but trades away bullet size for case capacity

I think the answer lies somewhere in this statement. Both cartridges share the same head, but the 23-35 tapers directly from there to the smaller .25 caliber neck. I'd share a picture, but photobucket has shut me down. Considering the .25 cal 117 projectile, the SD between it and the 170 gr. 30 cal are practically identical, .253 vs .256. Smaller case + relatively heavy for caliber bullet = not much velocity

I've been shooting and loading for the 25-35 for many years. My M94 is quite accurate. I've killed a few deer with it, but think it falls into the barely adequate power range. My favorite load is a 60 gr. Hornady flat point over a reduced charge of IMR 4895. Its a good short range varmint load.

 

[Riomouse911]

It could also be 6.5x55 and 7x57 syndrome; factory loadings set at a pressure deemed safe for the remaining 100+ year old guns in these calibers with their various states of quality.

 

[Varminterror]

Not only are we losing case capacity, we're losing bore capacity too. Smaller bore = less cross sectional area = less net force applied to the bullet.

 

[Laphroaig]

It could also be 6.5x55 and 7x57 syndrome; factory loadings set at a pressure deemed safe for the remaining 100+ year old guns in these calibers with their various states of quality

The difference is that nobody has ever chambered a modern rifle for 25-35 or its rimless cousin, 25 Remington. Except maybe for a few TC Contenders and European drillings and the like. So yes, the period rifles are made for the pressures it generates and visa versa.

The 25 Remington was available in some neat old semi's and pump rifles around the turn of the century.

 

[roscoe]

Interesting. And disappointing. So the design of the case was flawed:

Maybe the optimal load would be 80 grains. Roughly the sectional density of the .30 cal 125 grain load, but would have more space for powder. I am surprised there is no wildcat that bumps the shoulder out and up.

 

[Don McDowell]

I believe there was an Ackley 25-35.

 

[Riomouse911]

Ya, Ackley improved cartridges abound. I haven't seen a .25-35 AI, but the existence of them wouldn't surprise me in the least.

 

[Don McDowell]

Sadly there's a lot of stuff being called AI that PO his self never messed with... But I do recall for a while a few years back the 25-35 AI was all the rage amongst contender carbine shooters.
The 7x57 and 30-30 AI are good cartridges.

 

[Malamute]

In his book The Winchester Lever Legacy, Clyde Williamson covers the 25-35 AI, and thought the increase in power was substantial and needed over what the standard 25-35 provided in game killing power. The book gives higher velocity load info for all the Winchester lever action loads available in the 1886 and later models.

 

[homers]

I've got about 50 original winchester 117 gr factory ammo that I'm willing to sell if anybody is interested.

 

[Gordon]

I used and reloaded for a 25-35 in Big Sur in 70s . It is a mellow not an hi pressure round and as mentioned the .257 shank has less cross section to push against and these had a really quick 1-8 twist as I remember which I believes does not add to velocity. BUT my experience was very positive with my 94 carbine and it was deadly on deer and big lions and boar to several hundred yards, it certainly was much flatter shooting than my .32 Special in an identical rifle. The 25-35 was very popular in California in the old days for those who lived off of their ranches for good reasons.

 

[natman]

Looking over the .25-35 loads makes me wonder: why it is not a faster round? For example, the 160-grain .30-30 LeverEvolution round is 2400 fps (from their test barrel), yet the 110-grain .25-35 is only 25 fps faster. Since the .25-35 is based on the .30-30, but trades away bullet size for case capacity, why is it not a much faster round than .30-30? Even reloaders don't seem to make it any hotter, despite the fact that maximum pressure is higher in .25-35.

There must be something going on that I can't see.

Several things. The 25-35 case is more tapered than a 30-30 which reduces capacity, the LeverEvolution round is loaded with special powders not used in 25-35 and the LE round is fired from a test barrel, possibly longer than the 25-35's barrel.

 

[Clark]

100 years ago famous people were shooting the 25-35 100 gr at 2600 fps in Winchester 1885 falling block rifles.
That is just about what it will do today with modern powders, given the SAAMI registered max average pressure of 44,000 psi.

That pressure is about all I want to do with a Win 94 action.

My experiments with 30-30 case head strength and cross sectioning of case heads conflict with statements in "Speer 12" 1994 about 30-30 brass strength.
It is currently beyond my math ability to a Von Mises analysis on case heads. but I know someone who can, and his calculations are consistent with my experiments.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Mises_yield_criterion