Tell me about this Appleseed stuff.

[TexasRifleman]

I've read a lot about the shoots and they seem like a great idea.

My question is about the reality of how they are done. I ordered the target set and I have to question this whole thing.

Shooting targets at 25M that are "shrunk" and printed "dim" to appear further away doesn't really sound like it does anything.

There's no comparison to shooting a small target at 25M and a real AQT at 400 yards. Wind, mirages, etc make a HUGE difference.

I can see shooting a passing score at 25M on these reduced targets and not being able to even get close at real distances.

I understand the reality of not being able to find a range that goes out to 400 yards certainly, but the idea is that this teaches long range marksmanship at 25 meters. I don't buy it.

Is this kind of doing more harm than good?

 

[azredhawk44]

Glad you brought this up.

I was of the same opinion as you, frankly, in regards to the merits of shooting a shrunk target to simulate long distance shooting.

You're right in the sense that you don't have the additional obstacles of mirage, range estimation or wind.

But... Appleseed ain't sniper school. Appleseed is a movement to get more Americans re-introduced to their rifles and to the heritage of the American Revolution that has been fading in our society.

After attending an Appleseed, I saw first hand how my battle-sight zero is the same for a .308 rifle at 25 meters and at 250 meters (depending on the height of your sights/optics). 25 meters is a convenient distance to hang your target for lots of shooting, so that:
1. You can change your target quickly (getting 50+ people to do ANYTHING quickly on a firing line is challenging).
2. You can simulate the sight picture and technique of a major caliber battle rifle with a .22 caliber training rifle and not be mislead by the drastic difference in caliber.
3. Targets are cheaper and you can put more up in a smaller amount of space.

Is it perfect? Heck no.

But I came out of it a heck of a lot better shot after attending with an open mind.

The major element that will be different between 25 meter shooting and 400 meter shooting will be bullet drop. Appleseed addresses this issue with an intelligent discussion of "inches, minutes, clicks" and a stock mantra that may differ by caliber but for .223, .308 and .30-06 is repeated as "3-3-4-4-5-6-6-8-8". This is the number of minutes for come-up from a 100 meter zero as a shooter engages targets further out.

Will that mantra give you a bullseye hit at the next High Power match? Probably not. But it will get you on paper. And for a rifleman, every shot is a sighter shot. Your rifle and your ammo will shoot in a way that only you will know. So get out there and get to know it. Appleseed is a way to begin that process.

Hope this helps.

 

[Kentucky]

Texas,

Glad to see your interest in the Appleseed program. I am sure others will be along shortly to discuss the merits of reduced-size target shooting soon. In the meantime, I will tell you that it HAS helped me at all ranges. I have attended two of the Appleseed events and my rifle shooting has improved a great deal, both at shorter distances and longer distances.

One thing to remember is that they are only dealing man sized targets out to 5oo yards, not super long range sniper work. At both the events I went to the instructors talked in great detail about sight adjustments out to various distances, trajectories of different calibers and different rifles, IMC, and other things to help you get on target out at greater distances. More importantly, it teaches good shooting fundamentals such as posture, sling usage, NPOA, trigger control, sight alignment, breathing, and other things that affect how you shoot at ANY distance. Without having those fundamentals down you cant translate it to longer distances.

Quite frankly, other than range/wind estimation I dont believe that the Appleseed program with reduced scale targets leaves out anything for their intended purpose. Remember, they are aiming for the Riflemans Standard, which is 4 MOA.

To me though, all of the actual shooting instruction is secondary at an Appleseed event. The primary benefit of the Appleseed program is that it awakens experienced shooters, and teaches new shooters about the Heritage of the American Rifleman and motivates them to get involved in protecting that Heritage.

See www.appleseedinfo.org for more details. From their front page.....

Welcome to the Appleseed Project

What the RWVA (Revolutionary War Veterans Association) is all about:
The Appleseed Program is designed to take you from being a simple rifle owner to being a true rifleman. All throughout American history, the rifleman has been defined as a marksman capable of hitting a man-sized target from 500 yards away — no ifs, ands or buts about it. This 500-yard range is traditionally known as "the rifleman's quarter-mile;" a rifleman can hit just about any target he can see. This skill was particulary evident in the birth of our country, and was the difference in winning the Revolutionary War.

So why me?
This country was founded and won by riflemen who fought and beat British forces. We invite all interested marksmen to learn the skills and techniques necessary to shoot proficiently; and then hope you'll participate in teaching and practicing with others so that together we can save this great land. Why you? Well, that's simple: if you're on this page we're betting you're a patriot, and we hope you answer the call.

What's a rifleman?
In short, a rifleman is an armed American, trained in the tradition of American Liberty. It's a man who has learned to shoot a rifle accurately — accurate enough to score "expert" on the Army Qualification Course. Until you can do that, you're considered a "Cook," unprepared and unqualified to carry a rifle on the firing line of freedom. But after attending an Appleseed AQT shoot, you'll have the credentials necessary to be a true rifleman, and will understand the critical need for defending freedom in this country.

The RWVA is dedicated to the Appleseed Program and encourages every American to learn to shoot.

 

[Kentucky]

Also, I think this is in the wrong forum. Appleseed is NOT competitive in any way, unless you are competing against yourself. Quite frankly, at both the events I have been to EVERYONE is interested and happy to see EVERYONE else get better. I think this should be moved to the Rallying Point Forum.

 

[ceetee]

Two of the main functions of the Appleseed are basic in nature. One is introducing newcomers to the basic nature of riflery. Positions, use of a sling, finding your natural point of aim, trigger squeeze... all those basic skills that you either never were taught, or may need to be reminded of.

Another is reminding the participants of a part of our history when a few good men with rifles literally risked everything they had - "their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor" - they bet everything they had on the idea that their skill with a rifle could win them their freedom. This is an idea that we all could stand to be reminded of; especially in this day and age.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Also, I think this is in the wrong forum. Appleseed is NOT competitive in any way, unless you are competing against yourself.

Thanks for all the info.

I agree with this, I don't think it's competitive either, but my original post in General was moved here for some reason.

 

[Kentucky]

I agree with this, I don't think it's competitive either, but my original post in General was moved here for some reason.

I saw that, I actually saw this thread in General and followed the link there My comment was addressed to the mods.

 

[funfaler]

Without a doubt, shooting at reduced size targets at 25 m to simulate 100-500 yards, is not the same as shooting at the actual distance.

Without a doubt, if you can shoot the reduced size targets, you CAN shoot at the actual distances.

Further more, if you can make the hits at the reduced size targets, with a 22lr, you can make the hits on actual distance, with a center fire.

The technique of using the reduced sized targets at shorter ranges is a proven and effective teaching technique.

4 moa shooting is 4 moa shooting whether at 25 meters or 500 yards. What has proven itself out, is that it is actually easier to shoot an actual distance target, than the simulated target.

The Appleseed Shoots, from the marksmanship perspective, are focused on the Shooter's mechanics, not the gear. It is about teaching the shooter how to make a good shot. These skills will transfer to any platform and to any range.

To take a shooter that shoots Rifleman (Expert on the AQTs) to the actual distance range, you can have them making consistant hits out to 500 yards, with just a little instruction on trajectory, comeups, wind correction.

Range/wind estimation and correction out to 500 yards is a relatively easy task, not requiring a great deal of detailed knowledge. This is one of the reasons that we have 500 yards as being the outer edge of a Rifleman's domain.

The precision required to be effective out to 500 yards, is within the capabilities of most every rifle owner.

Some very good replies above, from some folks that have the experience to relate, thanks guys.

http://www.appleseedinfo.org Appleseed is coming to a range near you in 2008, don't miss the opportunity.

 

[roo_ster]

I wrote about my time at the Appleseed here:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=315994

 

[Grin Reaper]

There's no comparison to shooting a small target at 25M and a real AQT at 400 yards.

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on that point, friend. Having shot with many new, expert, and in-between shooters, I've come to appreciate the efficiency of getting shooters on-target by using reduced-scale 25 yard targets 1st, then moving to full-sized targets at full-distance. I find that one can only quickly make hits on full-sized targets at full-distance is one can first make hits on small targets at short range.

Now, if your experience is different, then I respect your opinion on the topic and we can agree to disagree on this point. No worries.

Am I saying that 25 yard shooting is exactly the same as 400 yard shooting? No. But it is similar enough to be useful.
For instance, my M1 Garand, when zeroed at 25 yards, is 3 inches low (or 1 minute low, if you prefer) at 300 yards. Not exactly the same as shooting a target at 25 yards, but close enough to give one an efficient starting point.

I understand the reality of not being able to find a range that goes out to 400 yards certainly, but the idea is that this teaches long range marksmanship at 25 meters. I don't buy it.

Is this kind of doing more harm than good?

I'll admit I was skeptical about this at first, too. But it turns out it does translate pretty well. I went to a shoot at the Ramseur, NC range in Feb. of 2006. We started shooting at 25 yards (I think it was actually 25m, but not a big enough difference to harp upon) and zeroed at that distance. Later, I got to shoot the pop-ups at 200-400 yards. It didn't really seem all that different from the 25 yard shooting, except that I had to either hold-over or adjust my rear sight to hit the 400 yard target.

I doubt any harm can come of this. In fact, the Army used to use (and may still use) what they used to call a "1000-inch range" [which is just under 28 yards, if my math skills are holding up] for qualification at posts that lacked a full-distance range [the last reference I saw to this was in a manual from the late 70's-early 80's, so I don't know that it's still common practice]

 

[Lex]

Very interesting article here on arfcom illustrating the +'s and -'s.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=34&t=279910

 

[sgtcap]

I doubt any harm can come of this. In fact, the Army used to use (and may still use) what they used to call a "1000-inch range" [which is just under 28 yards, if my math skills are holding up] for qualification at posts that lacked a full-distance range [the last reference I saw to this was in a manual from the late 70's-early 80's, so I don't know that it's still common practice]

The target itself has changed but it is still used. My unit shoots 25m almost exclusively.

 

[Burt Blade]

Any activity that teaches a clean trigger press and proper sight alignment is of benefit. There is considerable value to the humble "dime drill", where your assistant balances a dime on the muzzle of your unloaded rifle and you dry-fire the weapon without dislodging the dime. Appleseed matches are another "foundation" workout. Trigger press and sight alignment, over and over again, with a competent coach to apply corrections as needed.

Two weeks of ten successful dime drills a day, and you are going to see a big improvement in your shooting. An Appleseed session is also going to be helpful.

 

[leftofcentralfl1]

My $0.02:

An Appleseed Weekend Marksmanship Clinic is a *basic* course in rifle marksmanship, with some history thrown in at no extra charge. It is NOT the only event that Appleseed holds. They also run a Known Distance Clinic, or KDC, which addresses wind, range estimation, etc. In my home state of Florida, these will range out to 600 yards using full-sized targets. In addition to the KDC, they also hold a "Rifleman's Boot Camp", for 5 full days of Marksmanship Training, They are now even holding Adaptive Clinics for folks that can't physically run through all the positions, but still want to improve their shooting.

The 25meter Q&D-AQT is used for several reasons.
You can still teach beginners about:
The six steps of firing the shot.
Steady hold factors.
Natural Point of Aim.
Diagnosing Common Firing Line Errors.
Sighting In.
Importance of Dry Fire Exercises, etc.
And...you don't have to load 50 students into trucks and drive them out to 400 yards and back to change targets while doing so.

Is the 25m Quick and Dirty AQT the end all? Of course not. I think of it as a darn fine start to convert a rifle owner into a rifleman. Not a bad way to spend a weekend and $70 (Free if you're under 21, or female, or active duty.)

Check it out for yourself, sir:

http://www.appleseedinfo.org/