What Rifles for Appleseed? Ammo?

[elChupacabra!]

Hey guys, I've been reading about the Appleseed shoots and I think I'd like to go to the one on September 13-14 in Puryear, TN. I'm trying to decide what rifles I should plan on bringing and what I should practice with to get ready for the shoot. I currently have:

- AR-15 with Burris Fullfield II 3-9x40 scope on QD mount, zeroed for 100m, can remove and shoot using BUIS, zeroed at 25m, which I regularly use to shoot the Army Alt C Qual target @ 25m (and other reduced silhouettes scaled for position shooting)

- Savage Mk IIf bolt-action .22LR with Williams rear peep-sight, set up to imitate the AR-15 iron sight picture, zeroed at 25m, which I also regularly use to shoot the Alt C Qual target @ 25m (and other reduced silhouettes scaled for position shooting)

- Savage Model 64 semi-auto .22LR rifle with 3-9x40 scope mounted to simulate the AR-15 scope sight picture, zeroed at 25m, again for shooting the Alt C Qual target @ 25m (and other reduced silhouettes scaled for position shooting)

So I know I will bring the AR, and expect I'll bring at least one of the 22 rifles, but I don't know which one... I hear that semi-auto is good, but I also hear that the course is set up for irons, so I guess I need a little advice.

Also, regarding ammo, how much should I bring in each caliber, and are reloads acceptable? I see 400+ rounds of ammo recommended but I'm wondering how much I should plan on bringing for each caliber. Of course a brick of .22LR isn't much, but 400 rounds of .223 is a little more pricey, and somewhat time consuming if I load it all up myself. What do you guys think?

Mods - I've moved this part of my question out of my post in Rallying Point to get more traffic, and since this part is more about the rifles themselves and less about "rallying." Still, if not appropriate, please move / delete as you see fit. Thanks.

 

[shevrock]

Take both. you never know what you'll need specifically. And if you can't hit it, make sure you take a shotgun.

 

[Mister Peace]

AR..

 

[elChupacabra!]

Well yes, just to make sure this is clear, the AR WILL definitely be coming with me. I'm trying to decide between the other 2 rifles. Now I'm not opposed to bringing 3 guns, but I do have a double-rifle drag bag, so if I could narrow it down to 2 GOOD choices, that would be a little more convenient. Anyway, post away.

 

[Wheeler44]

Take the one that you are most comfortable with.

Although many shoot the course with a semi-.22 w/ scope, it can be done with a bolt gun with iron sights.

I personally prefer the bolt gun with good iron sights.

 

[elChupacabra!]

Wheeler,

Well, that raises an interesting question... the rifles are almost identical, with the same stocks, and the only differences (aside from action) being that the bolt gun has a far better trigger, whereas the scoped gun is easier to shoot accurately. So that still leaves me with quite a choice to make... but again, would shooting a scoped gun violate the spirit of the event? I don't want to cheat or miss out on a good learning opportunity, which is why I'm hesitant to take the scoped semi, even though it is easier to employ accurately, and quickly, which I understand to be important.

 

[41magsnub]

I plan to go with my Garand as the primary and the AR-15 as a backup, both with the stock irons. I'll probably throw the 10/22 in behind the seat as well just because I can and have the room.

For factory ammo vs. reloads bring whatever the guns shoot best. Put them on a bench rest if you have to in order to determine that.

Per http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=62.0

Bring 400 rds for an appleseed or 1500rds for a boot camp

I'll be bringing 400 and change of each just in case in the first round of shooting the garand goes out of service or something. For the .22 I've been blessed in that my 10/22 just loves the Federal 550 rd bulk carton at Wallmart so I'll just throw in one of those.

For magazines they say to not preload them since they frequently have you only load 2 rds, easy enough for the AR-15 and 10/22. I'll be picking up a couple of the 5rd/2rd Enbloc clips for the garand.

 

[elChupacabra!]

So you think it's a good idea to bring 400 centerfire rounds in addition to a brick of .22LR ammo? In that case, I should get to loading, since that will be a good bit of .223, and I like to take my time and load in small batches of 50 rounds (pretty new to loading and don't want to blow my gun up! plus I'm on a single-stage press).

Fortunately, both of my Savages are just fine eating the Federal 550rd bulk packs from WalMart too, or will (at least) print 5 shots within a 1" 500m scaled silhouette at 25m, which I think is sufficient for the type of practice I use them for.

How about picking up brass - I assume that's acceptable? I definitely want to recover my brass if I go through 400 pieces in 2 days !

 

[Smokey Joe]

IMX...

Having made Rifleman @ an Appleseed, with my fine accurate 5-shot bolt .243, I have to say that unless your bolt gun will hold 10 rounds in its magazine you will be at a severe disadvantage in the timed-fire events. Even if your bolter does hold 10 rounds, you will still have to spend time operating the bolt.

Was I to do another Appleseed, I would do it with nothing other than an autoloader with a 10-round magazine, of course insisting that this firearm be accurate enough for the job.

If you had to choose between the accuracy of a bolt gun and the speed of the autoloader, go with the accuracy. BUT, if you have an accurate autoloader, you are 'way, 'way ahead of the game.

So, since you are set up for the Army Qual test @ 25yd, (and presumably, proficient @ that test and @ that distance) take yr AR 15 and yr Savage .22 autoloader.

Now, if you're NOT proficient, believe me the Appleseed will make you more so. Use the rifle you do better with, and I'd go with one rifle all weekend long, rather than shifting back & forth. If the Savage bolt rifle is your best shooter, that'd be the one to use.

In an Appleseed, speed is important in the timed events, but accuracy is more so in the whole thing. As Fred will no doubt point out.

The brass scrounging @ an Appleseed is great--many of the shooters will be using mil surp brass, and they leave it where it falls. I came home with a couple of gallon jugs of the stuff.

Enjoy!

 

[elChupacabra!]

Smokeyjoe,

Thanks for the first-hand advice - in reality the AR is by far the most accurate, so I will definitely spend a good bit of my time shooting it... but at $.40 / round new or $.17 / round reloaded + 1 minute of my time, I'd rather not shoot all 400 rounds through it if I can use the .22LR some of the time.

With that said, I suppose that the autoloader .22LR with the scope dialed down to 3x power isn't too much cheating, and I can definitely use the AR with irons OR the scope given about 30 seconds to flip the Larue QD mount on/off, so maybe that's my best shot.

Seeing how the votes are going so far, with none for the bolt / iron .22LR rifle, maybe JUST the scoped .22 Autoloader is my best second gun... as long as it's acceptable for the spirit of the event. (EDIT I wrote this before that first vote came through)

I'm already doing pretty good at the 25m line, hitting about 70-80% of the time at these ranges / positions with irons -

Standing - 150 / 200m
Kneeling - 200 / 250m
Sitting - 250 / 300m
Prone - 300 / 500m

Although I really do want to improve that hit probability across the board, which is why I'm looking forward to the Appleseed shoot.

NOTE that that 70-80% is an overall average - I shoot 5 rounds at each target listed from each position for 40 rounds total. I usually get all 5 sitting at 250 and 300 but maybe 2 or 3 from kneeling at each of those targets. Kneeling is my weak spot... I hate that position. Prone at 500m is, also, something I'm trying to improve at, although 300m is a cake walk as long as I focus on the fundamentals.

 

[Wheeler44]

I know for a fact that Rifleman can be reached with a bolt action, so does Smokey Joe. If it is your first Appleseed the auotloader may be a good choice so you can focus on accuracy. That said, 8 rounds in the 5 ring count the same as 10 rounds in the 4. Accuracy is key.

 

[elChupacabra!]

Also, if you picked "take both," please let me know your experiences at an Appleseed shoot that incline you to vote as such - I'm reading more and more about how it's not necessarily a good idea to have several rifles and try to shuffle back and forth between them, although maybe ONE .22LR rifle seems like a good idea to mitigate costs. Input? Thanks again guys.

 

[chris in va]

Semiauto. But as the bolt is a 22, shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Hey, it's your money. If you want to blow $150 worth of ammo at little squares for two days, go for it. Otherwise just stick with the 22's.

 

[elChupacabra!]

Hmmm... maybe my question isn't clear? I am going to bring the .223 AR-15 for sure, but don't want to shoot it exclusively due to costs, so I want to bring a second rifle, in .22LR... of which I've got one in semi with a scope, and one in bolt action with irons... so I'm wondering WHICH 22 RIFLE to bring so I don't shoot ONLY .223 at the event. Does that make sense?

Which .22LR rifle should I bring to SUPPLEMENT the AR?

 

[Wheeler44]

I know that you are taking your AR.... they will be shooting out to 200 yds.

If it were me, I would take my bolt gun.

I too have both, an autoloader with a scope and a bolt gun with peep sights. Personally I shoot better with peeps and the trigger on my bolt gun is way better than my semi.

Many scopes on .22s have a parallax issue at 25 yds. you will do a lot of shooting at that range. It may seem like the scope is "more accurate" but really it just gets close faster. Try to shoot at a 1" square with it. If you can shoot tighter groups with one over the other use the one with best groups. Remember, shoot for group size.

If you choose your bolt gun, practice quick mag changes. practice getting into sitting and prone positions quickly(and safely) cutting down your times on mag changes and position changes will get you more shooting time in the timed events.

Which to take? Only you can answer that.

Good luck,

Wheeler44

 

[funfaler]

I really think you will be better served with taking all three.

Decide which of the 22s will be primary, use it STICK WITH IT. However, if that rifle breaks, get the other out. I would reserve the AR for a third backup, for the 25 meter portion, and primary for any actual distance shooting.

Keep this in mind. You WILL want a web sling on any rifle you are using, so that may have an impact on your choice.

Good luck.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

I would take both, but don't they want you to use iron sights in the appleseed shoots?

 

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Leave the scope at home. Take the center fire rifle and the .22. You'll be there to learn basic rifle marksmanship, not how to operate a scope.

Bring a web sling or if you have it, a leather sling such as are used in high power marksmanship.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Smokey Joe]

Questions...

don't they want you to use iron sights in the appleseed shoots?

They'd prefer you bring irons, but the idea is to use what you've got effectively, just as did the patriots at Lexington and Concord. So if "what you've got" is a 'scoped rifle, then you use a 'scoped rifle.

Bring a web sling or if you have it, a leather sling such as are used in high power marksmanship.

You want a MILITARY STYLE SLING. You know, the leather one with 3 loops, 2 sets of hooks, 2 keepers, and 100 holes in it. If that's what they use in high-power, so be it. But the target slings with which I'm familiar are not it. Military style slings come in webbing, also, and they are supposed to be fine for an Appleseed also--I got good results with a leather one. If you bring 2 rifles, make sure the sling installs properly on both of 'em, or get 2 slings. The swivels for some .22 rifles want a narrower sling than the usual military style.

If you don't know how to install the military style sling (It can be a real puzzle if you've never done it; once you've done it it's easy) just bring it along with yr rifle--the Appleseed instructors are very helpful with stuff like this.

The Appleseed info website www.appleseedinfo.org has a good list of what to bring to an Appleseed shoot. And I'm reminded by looking at it that you REALLY want good elbow protection. The second day I used a pair of skateboarding elbow pads inside my padded shooting jacket, all over big bandaids.