Texas 51% rule and Wine Bars

[Prince Yamato]

Disclaimer: I don't want to hear from any of you teetotalers about how you don't mix alcohol and guns. That subject has been covered ad nauseum. I am a responsible adult and comply with Texas laws concerning weapons possession and intoxication.

One of the pleasures I take in living in Austin, TX, is its proximity to wine country, its number of wine aficionadi and consequently, the prevalence of wine bars. One thing I have noticed about the wine bars is that they lack the 51% sign. What I have noted about the wine bars is that in addition to selling wine for consumption on the premises, they also act as a wine store and sell wine by the bottle for consumption off premises.

If I am correct, these places do not derive 51% or more of their income from consumption on premises because in fact, their primary income comes from selling wine by the bottle or by selling food (alla a standard restaurant). Their specialty may be the wine tasting experience, but their primary source of income is not derived from that... it's in effect, from being a liquor store that specializes in wine and happens to sell food to go with that wine.

Similarly, I have noticed other venues that one would classify as a "pub" that lack the 51% sign. I would assume that they make money from selling food as well.

In short, am I correct that unless they conspicuously post that 51% sign, I am to assume that I am legal to carry there?

 

[Frog48]

In short, am I correct that unless they conspicuously post that 51% sign, I am to assume that I am legal to carry there?

I believe that you are correct. No signage = good to go.

 

[daniel1113]

That is my understanding as well.

And for the record, I am a teetotaler that completely supports carrying in bars. In fact, the only reason I don't go to bars with my friends is because I cannot carry... it has nothing to do with the alcohol, even though I don't drink.

 

[DeftwillP]

I was under the impression that it is your responsibility to know whether or not the facility is 51%. The burden is not on the establishment to provide the sign. All this is compared to 30.06 where the establishment must provide the sign in the proper manner or you're not held accountable.

 

[1858rem]

just my opinion but if i was gonna go out drinkin i dont think id want a gun on myselfe cause id probably misbehave, cant carry yet anyhow lol

 

[1858rem]

oh didnt see that first part....whats a teetotaler though? -an no sign means your fine-

 

[daniel1113]

I was under the impression that it is your responsibility to know whether or not the facility is 51%. The burden is not on the establishment to provide the sign. All this is compared to 30.06 where the establishment must provide the sign in the proper manner or you're not held accountable.

Well, if the business is a 51% facility and does not have a sign, then it would be breaking the law, specifically Texas Government Code 411.204.

I also do not see how one could reasonably expect a patron to make such a determination. While I cannot find anything in the Texas concealed handgun laws that states a patron would be in the clear if the sign was not posted, I cannot believe that one would ever be prosecuted for it, considering the state and whatnot.

 

[Art Eatman]

No sign, carry's fine. It's not up to a patron to audit the books of any booze-serving joint.

 

[Prince Yamato]

Art, you've just made my social life a whole lot more fun. Now I can sound all hip, suggesting certain places and little will my friends know my other motivation... CCWing.

Now comes the difficult question... what type of wine goes best with a Glock 26? I'm guessing a glass of Riesling should do it.

 

[calaverasslim]

By law, if they derive 51% or more of their business income by selling booze for consumption on site, then they must post the sign.

If they do not, then by law they can't say anything. Just have the cops run you off for trespassing.

Thats the law, but you and I know the real world

 

[TexasRifleman]

I was under the impression that it is your responsibility to know whether or not the facility is 51%. The burden is not on the establishment to provide the sign.

As Art said, the on you way you'd know otherwise would be to hire a forensic accountant. You have to depend on the sign, and (not a lawyer and all) you'd have a pretty good defense if they happen not to have the sign up.

 

[Davionmaximus]

Again... not to sound like a broken record... the sign is the law...

 

[TexasRifleman]

Again... not to sound like a broken record... the sign is the law...

Understand that, but I have seen at least one bar here close to where I live fail to post the sign. They got it all straight but for a couple of weeks there was no sign and I know for a FACT it was required.

And I know of another place that had BOTH signs up, the 51% sign AND the "unlicensed carry is bad" or however its worded.

So, the signs are law, but not always correctly used.

The Texas statute doesn't say "trust the sign", it says you can't carry in a 51% establishment.

The actual statute:

(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;

It doesn't say "businesses that have the sign".

So, if the business posts the sign incorrectly you still might be in trouble, though you'd probably have a very good defense.

Looking for the sign is probably "due diligence" but who knows.

It also says "intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly" so you would probably be in the clear with a missing sign. I looked this up a couple of years ago and there seem to be LOTS of fines levied against places for incorrect sign usage, so keep that in mind.

(not a lawyer and all that)

 

[chuck_in_texas]

another two cents

I'm in San Antonio, and can only contribute this: when I was taking the CHL course, our instructor was a retired deputy and a very aware guy. His advice was this: the sign SHOULD be the determining element. But signs get lost, owners get careless, peace officers can get carried away, and his rule of thumb was this, and it's pretty simple:

If you see a bar, and behind the bar there are bottles of something (wine, gin, whatever) a bell ought to go off in your head that says 51 percent, sign or not. Yes, you may win in a court fight----but do you really want to do that? People who carry do so to AVOID trouble, right? So if you see a BAR, go lock it in the car or go somewhere else.

If you get arrested--and you could--you may not ever get charged but you still have the run-around of getting your piece back, etc, etc

Just FWIW

 

[Frog48]

If you see a bar, and behind the bar there are bottles of something (wine, gin, whatever) a bell ought to go off in your head that says 51 percent, sign or not.

Thats a really bad "rule of thumb". One of my good friends owns a restaurant, and they have a nice, well stocked bar. They make a healthy portion of their income from the bar, however they dont come anywhere near 51% alcohol sales. I'd hazard to guess that most restaurants would compare similarly.

Bear in mind that I'm talking about real restaurants, not bars that happen to serve "bar food" like nachos and buffalo wings.

 

[Prince Yamato]

If you see a bar, and behind the bar there are bottles of something (wine, gin, whatever) a bell ought to go off in your head that says 51 percent, sign or not.

But a wine "bar" is not really a bar per se... these ones seem to make more money selling wine by the bottle for consumption off premises. None of the Texas wineries have 51% signs either. So you're ok to carry at a wine tasting... they don't make money off of wine tastings, they make it from selling bottles of wine for consumption off premises. It's more like a liquor store with a "try before you buy" policy.

The way I see it, the ambiguity of the whole "bar" situation should be cause to remove this stupid 51% rule and just allow "bar" carry. Not every bar is full of drunk college students. Frankly, I like to head to the wine bars and then walk around downtown Austin on a warm winter's night (it's Texas remember). Why should I be defenseless?

 

[TexasRifleman]

The way I see it, the ambiguity of the whole "bar" situation should be cause to remove this stupid 51% rule and just allow "bar" carry.

There's the winning post. I tried making that argument a couple of years ago to my Representative based on some research I did on how many fines were levied against bars for incorrect sign usage.

He said he didn't think it would get much support, but that was with just one guy bugging him. I sent an email about it to TSRA and they never responded. Eh.....

 

[daniel1113]

Yes, it is a ridiculous rule.

Being able to carry in bars (and pretty much everywhere else) was one of my favorite aspects of living in PA. I don't drink, but it was nice being able to go to bars with friends and hang out while carrying.

PA isn't the only state that allows bar carry, either, and I don't believe there have been any problems so far. Funny how that happens, eh?

 

[Art Eatman]

This thread is about Texas law, not about the logic of the 51% rule or its silliness--which gets into political philosophy.