Without public access to the names of people who would be allowed to carry concealed weapons, it would be nearly impossible to tell whether the law is working as intended and make sure the permits wind up solely in the hands of upstanding citizens, officials of government watchdog groups said Friday.
Concealed Weapons
Quotable
The beauty of the bill is that the criminal will not know who is or who is not carrying a weapon.
- Rep. Scott Gunderson
It is impossible for the public to engage in any meaningful oversight when the records are off the books.
- Lucy Dalglish, executive director,
Reporters Committee for Freedomƒp of the Press
The Texas Experience
A study of the concealed carry law in Texas from 1996-2001 showed that:
41
permit holders were arrested on murder and attempted murder charges
5,314
offenses were committed by permit holders. Texas cut off access to permit information after the study was published.
Legislation
Text: SB 403 (pdf)
The Wisconsin Legislature is on the brink of passing a bill that would allow people to carry concealed weapons and, if it becomes law, the names of permit holders would be kept secret to the general public.
"We know who is licensed to drive cars. We know who is licensed to drive school buses and we know who is licensed to cut our hair," said Lucy Dalglish, the executive director of the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press.
"It is impossible for the public to engage in any meaningful oversight when the records are off the books."
Holding government accountable for the law would be impossible if the records aren't open, added Douglas E. Lee, a legal correspondent with the national First Amendment Center.
There would be no need for public records laws "if we could rely on public officials to do the right thing," said Lee, an attorney in Dixon, Ill. "The whole idea of democracy is to allow that public check . . . to confirm people are doing what they are supposed to be doing and that legislation has its desired effect."
Wisconsin's move to keep permit holder records secret is "one more in a number of legislative efforts increasing the amount of confidentiality" across the nation as the "pendulum slowly swings" away from greater openness in government, he added.
Said Charles Davis, the executive director of the National Freedom of Information Coalition: Allowing people to conceal weapons "without allowing citizens any avenue of accountability strikes me as wrongheaded in the extreme." But state Sen. Dave Zien (R-Eau Claire), the sponsor of the bill, said the Wisconsin attorney general's office would make sure the so-called Personal Protection Act works if it becomes law. Each year, the office would report to the Legislature on the number of applicants, the number of permits issued and denied, and any problems encountered.
Zien and Rep. Scott Gunderson (R-Town of Waterford), who co-sponsored the bill, said they will not back away from keeping the names secret, even though Wisconsin has a long history of making other records public, including hunting and fishing licenses, health profession licenses, teacher licenses and traffic and court records.
"It's silly to think we should have a list of permit holders available to the public," Gunderson said. "The beauty of the bill is that the criminal will not know who is or who is not carrying a weapon."
"People who hate this bill will be helped by it, and they won't even know it," said Gunderson, who has said the estimated 100,000 permit holders would likely be the most law-abiding people in the state.
Zien and other proponents said if the names and other information of concealed-carry permit holders were public, thieves would know where to find guns - a highly sought-after item in burglaries.
And if a criminal learns you don't carry a concealed weapon, "some people might see you as easy prey to rob, rape or murder," Zien said.
Doyle promises veto
The state Senate on Tuesday approved the bill, which would allow residents 21 and older to carry a concealed weapon if they pass a training course. The Assembly is expected to consider the bill on Tuesday. Gov. Jim Doyle has said he will veto the bill, as he did two years ago, but Zien and Gunderson are lining up votes for a potential veto override.
Kristen Rand, the legislative director for the Washington, D.C.-based Violence Policy Center, points to Texas as a state where the concealed carry law isn't working. A study that the non-profit center, which works to curb violence, conducted showed that "basically concealed carry permit holders were not stopping crimes, they were committing crimes," Rand said.
The study, from January 1996 to August 2001, showed that 41 people who held permits had been arrested on murder and attempted murder charges, Rand said. Overall, there were 5,314 offenses committed by permit holders, the study shows. Shortly after the study was published, Rand said, Texas cut off public access to permit holder information.
Zien called the study "absolute garbage."
He said hundreds of cases cited in the study were traffic and boating offenses, including 1,300 driving with invalid or suspended licenses.
"Texas is a tremendous example of how good the law is," Zien said, saying that crime has decreased there.
In Wisconsin, proponents of the bill point out that there are a number of restrictions on obtaining a permit, and on where people can carry concealed weapons.
The $75, five-year permits would not be issued to those convicted of felonies, drug crimes or violent misdemeanors. Under certain circumstances, a permit could be denied if applicants were addicted to drugs or alcohol or had certain mental health problems.
Permit holders could not bring guns into child care centers, domestic violence shelters, churches, hospitals and clinics, college campuses and sporting events, police stations, prisons, jails, courthouses, airports, taverns and restaurants where alcohol accounts for more than half of sales. Federal law prohibits guns in schools.
Public facilities could ban guns only if they provided metal detectors and locked storage areas. Private businesses could ban guns from their premises only if they posted signs and individually notified customers as they entered their buildings.
In an effort to win the support of law enforcement officers, the bill was changed to allow police officers to check a database during traffic stops to see whether vehicle owners had concealed weapons permits. But some officers have complained that the change isn't enough. They have said they would not be allowed to check the database in other situations, such as when responding to a domestic disturbance.
Zien said he doesn't want police officers targeting citizens simply because they have a permit to carry a concealed weapon.
While the Wisconsin Freedom of Information Council has taken no position on the issue of concealed carry, it is among those raising objections to the bill's secrecy provisions.
"The council feels there is no good reason that the names of permit holders should not be public information, just as the names of people who have fishing and hunting licenses is public. We don't buy that it makes permit holders potential targets of criminals, any more than does public access to the names of people who have hunting licenses - and, presumably, guns in their homes," said Bill Lueders, president of the council and news editor of the Isthmus in Madison.
"Without access to this information, the public and the press will have very little ability to evaluate how well or how poorly the concealed-carry law is working," Lueders said.
States moving to more privacy
Some states that allowed public access to concealed weapons permits have changed or are moving to change the law to make them secret.
North Dakota earlier this year made the permits confidential. State Sen. John Syverson (R-Fargo) said he pushed for the change after a retired police officer told him it made no sense to have the records public.
"One protection is psychological, the potential of not knowing whether someone is armed," Syverson said. That alone can deter crime.
Syverson, who does not carry a concealed weapon, said he was spurred in part to make the records confidential after a Bismarck newspaper published the names of North Dakota state lawmakers who have concealed weapons permits.
Ohio lawmakers also are moving to close journalists' access to the permits. The general public in the Buckeye state already does not have access to the records, said Kara Joseph, legislative aide to Rep. Tom Brinkman Jr. (R-Cincinnati).
Brinkman is sponsoring legislation to make the records secret after newspapers published the names of everyone who applied for a concealed-carry permit, Joseph said.
In Cleveland, a person whose name who was printed was robbed and killed days later, Joseph said. While no one has connected the murder to the fact that the name was published, it raised concerns, she said.
She said others whose names were published called lawmakers to complain that they were being harassed.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/dec05/376807.asp
Concealed Weapons
Quotable
The beauty of the bill is that the criminal will not know who is or who is not carrying a weapon.
- Rep. Scott Gunderson
It is impossible for the public to engage in any meaningful oversight when the records are off the books.
- Lucy Dalglish, executive director,
Reporters Committee for Freedomƒp of the Press
The Texas Experience
A study of the concealed carry law in Texas from 1996-2001 showed that:
41
permit holders were arrested on murder and attempted murder charges
5,314
offenses were committed by permit holders. Texas cut off access to permit information after the study was published.
Legislation
Text: SB 403 (pdf)
The Wisconsin Legislature is on the brink of passing a bill that would allow people to carry concealed weapons and, if it becomes law, the names of permit holders would be kept secret to the general public.
"We know who is licensed to drive cars. We know who is licensed to drive school buses and we know who is licensed to cut our hair," said Lucy Dalglish, the executive director of the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press.
"It is impossible for the public to engage in any meaningful oversight when the records are off the books."
Holding government accountable for the law would be impossible if the records aren't open, added Douglas E. Lee, a legal correspondent with the national First Amendment Center.
There would be no need for public records laws "if we could rely on public officials to do the right thing," said Lee, an attorney in Dixon, Ill. "The whole idea of democracy is to allow that public check . . . to confirm people are doing what they are supposed to be doing and that legislation has its desired effect."
Wisconsin's move to keep permit holder records secret is "one more in a number of legislative efforts increasing the amount of confidentiality" across the nation as the "pendulum slowly swings" away from greater openness in government, he added.
Said Charles Davis, the executive director of the National Freedom of Information Coalition: Allowing people to conceal weapons "without allowing citizens any avenue of accountability strikes me as wrongheaded in the extreme." But state Sen. Dave Zien (R-Eau Claire), the sponsor of the bill, said the Wisconsin attorney general's office would make sure the so-called Personal Protection Act works if it becomes law. Each year, the office would report to the Legislature on the number of applicants, the number of permits issued and denied, and any problems encountered.
Zien and Rep. Scott Gunderson (R-Town of Waterford), who co-sponsored the bill, said they will not back away from keeping the names secret, even though Wisconsin has a long history of making other records public, including hunting and fishing licenses, health profession licenses, teacher licenses and traffic and court records.
"It's silly to think we should have a list of permit holders available to the public," Gunderson said. "The beauty of the bill is that the criminal will not know who is or who is not carrying a weapon."
"People who hate this bill will be helped by it, and they won't even know it," said Gunderson, who has said the estimated 100,000 permit holders would likely be the most law-abiding people in the state.
Zien and other proponents said if the names and other information of concealed-carry permit holders were public, thieves would know where to find guns - a highly sought-after item in burglaries.
And if a criminal learns you don't carry a concealed weapon, "some people might see you as easy prey to rob, rape or murder," Zien said.
Doyle promises veto
The state Senate on Tuesday approved the bill, which would allow residents 21 and older to carry a concealed weapon if they pass a training course. The Assembly is expected to consider the bill on Tuesday. Gov. Jim Doyle has said he will veto the bill, as he did two years ago, but Zien and Gunderson are lining up votes for a potential veto override.
Kristen Rand, the legislative director for the Washington, D.C.-based Violence Policy Center, points to Texas as a state where the concealed carry law isn't working. A study that the non-profit center, which works to curb violence, conducted showed that "basically concealed carry permit holders were not stopping crimes, they were committing crimes," Rand said.
The study, from January 1996 to August 2001, showed that 41 people who held permits had been arrested on murder and attempted murder charges, Rand said. Overall, there were 5,314 offenses committed by permit holders, the study shows. Shortly after the study was published, Rand said, Texas cut off public access to permit holder information.
Zien called the study "absolute garbage."
He said hundreds of cases cited in the study were traffic and boating offenses, including 1,300 driving with invalid or suspended licenses.
"Texas is a tremendous example of how good the law is," Zien said, saying that crime has decreased there.
In Wisconsin, proponents of the bill point out that there are a number of restrictions on obtaining a permit, and on where people can carry concealed weapons.
The $75, five-year permits would not be issued to those convicted of felonies, drug crimes or violent misdemeanors. Under certain circumstances, a permit could be denied if applicants were addicted to drugs or alcohol or had certain mental health problems.
Permit holders could not bring guns into child care centers, domestic violence shelters, churches, hospitals and clinics, college campuses and sporting events, police stations, prisons, jails, courthouses, airports, taverns and restaurants where alcohol accounts for more than half of sales. Federal law prohibits guns in schools.
Public facilities could ban guns only if they provided metal detectors and locked storage areas. Private businesses could ban guns from their premises only if they posted signs and individually notified customers as they entered their buildings.
In an effort to win the support of law enforcement officers, the bill was changed to allow police officers to check a database during traffic stops to see whether vehicle owners had concealed weapons permits. But some officers have complained that the change isn't enough. They have said they would not be allowed to check the database in other situations, such as when responding to a domestic disturbance.
Zien said he doesn't want police officers targeting citizens simply because they have a permit to carry a concealed weapon.
While the Wisconsin Freedom of Information Council has taken no position on the issue of concealed carry, it is among those raising objections to the bill's secrecy provisions.
"The council feels there is no good reason that the names of permit holders should not be public information, just as the names of people who have fishing and hunting licenses is public. We don't buy that it makes permit holders potential targets of criminals, any more than does public access to the names of people who have hunting licenses - and, presumably, guns in their homes," said Bill Lueders, president of the council and news editor of the Isthmus in Madison.
"Without access to this information, the public and the press will have very little ability to evaluate how well or how poorly the concealed-carry law is working," Lueders said.
States moving to more privacy
Some states that allowed public access to concealed weapons permits have changed or are moving to change the law to make them secret.
North Dakota earlier this year made the permits confidential. State Sen. John Syverson (R-Fargo) said he pushed for the change after a retired police officer told him it made no sense to have the records public.
"One protection is psychological, the potential of not knowing whether someone is armed," Syverson said. That alone can deter crime.
Syverson, who does not carry a concealed weapon, said he was spurred in part to make the records confidential after a Bismarck newspaper published the names of North Dakota state lawmakers who have concealed weapons permits.
Ohio lawmakers also are moving to close journalists' access to the permits. The general public in the Buckeye state already does not have access to the records, said Kara Joseph, legislative aide to Rep. Tom Brinkman Jr. (R-Cincinnati).
Brinkman is sponsoring legislation to make the records secret after newspapers published the names of everyone who applied for a concealed-carry permit, Joseph said.
In Cleveland, a person whose name who was printed was robbed and killed days later, Joseph said. While no one has connected the murder to the fact that the name was published, it raised concerns, she said.
She said others whose names were published called lawmakers to complain that they were being harassed.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/dec05/376807.asp
