Texas DPS not happy with S&W M&P 9MM.

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Bexar

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Returning to SIG P-226 until issues can possibly be resolved.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...andguns-reliability-issues-returns-sig-sauer/

Ibid:

As you are aware I approved the adoption of the Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm as the Department’s service handgun beginning with Recruit School A14. However, we have been experiencing malfunctions during Recruit School firearms training, which is unacceptable, and I have suspended the transition to the Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm.

Even if the manufacturer is able to address our issues over the next week, we cannot afford to risk the extra training time that was added to address transition contingincies. Education, Training and Research will continue to work with the manufacturer on this issue, but today, Trooper Trainees will be issued Sig Sauer 357 handguns, which we have in our inventory as a precaution.
 
we cannot afford to risk the extra training time that was added to address transition contingincies.
Click to expand...

They don't think there will be extra training required to address the DA/SA transition? or will they be using only SIG DAO models?
 
TXDPS Issues the P226s in DAK currently. You can carry a TDA if you were issued one (prior to I believe 2008 or so) and you can have yours converted (or be issued a different pistol). Also I believe the Colonel means he doesn't want to spend time training recruits on the P226 just to issue them a M&P and do an transition course. There's not a lot of spare time built in their Academy curriculum I'm sure.

My own agency went to the M&P shortly after they hit the market, and there was a TON of issues. Took about three years to get reliable guns from S&W. We haven't really seen too many problems in the last couple of years. Still not crazy about them, but serviceable.

-Jenrick
 
The M&P9 is the known problem child of the bunch because all four calibers (9mm, .40 S&W, .357 SIG, and .45 ACP) use the same extractor that was optimized for .40 S&W. Apex has been making an enhanced extractor for several years. Hilton Yam wrote an article about M&P9 extraction and ejection issues a little over a year ago in his Modern Service Weapons blog. S&W should be using a dedicated 9mm extractor in the M&P pistols. However, the issues with the M&P9 have been pretty well known in the competition and LE communities. Hilton Yam writes that having S&W send you a new extractor and spring solves most issues. I've also read several accounts from competition shooters who prefer the ergos on the M&P to other pistols, and they feel that the $45 Apex enhanced extractor is a cheap fix to let them use the M&P9. Perhaps losing or potentially losing the TX DPS contract and all the bad publicity it's already generated will finally convince S&W to implement the known fix on the M&P9.

So, right now, I wouldn't issue the M&P9 to a department or agency if I were the decision maker on such issues. On the other hand, with a known, inexpensive, easy fix (if needed) I wouldn't back away from an M&P9 as a personal handgun if it fit me well.
 
If you already had SIG's, and SIG trained people, and SIG duty holsters, and tons of extra magazines, and parts?

Why would anyone expect to find a more reliable gun for less money?

Oh, of course, price up front trade-in Money!
It looks good in your Annual Performance Review!

Being a big enough man to admit his mistake should count for much more to his superiors though.

But it won't!

rc
 
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2 reasons:

1) Cost. Sigs cost more then the M&P nothing is going to change that.
2) Ammo cost. .357 sig is quite a bit more expensive then 9mm. Even with a single 50 round qualification shoot a year (and I know DPS shoots more then that) with 2,000 plus trooopers there's a significant savings in ammo prices.

Some people have mentioned ease in teaching recruits to shoot with a 9mm over .357 sig, which with all things being equal I agree. However they actually will issue cadets having issues .22lr conversion kits for their 226's, followed by 9mm conversions, and finally over to .357 sig as needed to get them where they need to be. So in reality that's not really a concern.

-Jenrick
 
Jenrick said:
TXDPS Issues the P226s in DAK currently. You can carry a TDA if you were issued one (prior to I believe 2008 or so) and you can have yours converted (or be issued a different pistol). Also I believe the Colonel means he doesn't want to spend time training recruits on the P226 just to issue them a M&P and do an transition course. There's not a lot of spare time built in their Academy curriculum I'm sure.

My own agency went to the M&P shortly after they hit the market, and there was a TON of issues. Took about three years to get reliable guns from S&W. We haven't really seen too many problems in the last couple of years. Still not crazy about them, but serviceable.

-Jenrick
Click to expand...
TABC went with the M&Ps for general issue several years back. Before than many agents wore the Colt 1911...loud and proud.
 
Orlando PD....

The Orlando Florida police department purchased & used the TDA(traditional DA/SA) SIG P226 in 9x19mm in 1990. Around 2008/2009, the PD pushed the city & mayor for the $$$ to buy new sidearms for the approx 900 sworn personnel(around 700 in the patrol div). The union & labor groups asked for upgrades to the .40S&W or .357sig for sworn officers.
The chief & city council decided to stay with the SIGs, having a new LE contract for SIG P226R DA/SAs in 9x19mm. The reasons giving to the local media were the savings in new spare parts, ammunition procurement(new contracts, logistics), holsters, magazines, armorer training, etc.
SIG Sauer also maintained the Orlando PD training center/range. ;)
The union did get a special deal to permit sworn officers/detectives to pack .40s or .357sig P226Rs/P229Rs if they paid for them & could qualify.
For the 9mm, the Orlando PD kept the popular Winchester Ranger T/T Series 127gr +P+ JHP. The agency never had any documented failures or problems with the Ranger T rounds. It's not reported what type of .40S&W or .357sig they authorize for duty use(s).
Most sworn patrol officers & tactical units carry the P226Rs in Safariland or SERPA holsters.

As for the Texas DPS, I think the Apex parts route is the way to go. I owned a M&P 9mm full size in 2011/2012. I didn't have any big problems with it but I never really shot it that much. The M&P Compact .45acp I owned wasn't bad either. Id never heard the extractor was set up for the .40S&W in the M&P series.

I have noticed a few new unfired M&P models in .40/9x19mm/.45acp that seem to be sub-par in terms of trigger pulls/QC. :mad:
Smith & Wesson needs to step it up or hire/train more QC staff. Or they could lose police & military service contracts.
 
Texas DPS gave up Sig 45acp for the 357 sig round because of it's ability to shoot through auto glass. I can't see them going to 9X19, they probably called off the M&P more because of the caliber than the malfunction problems. They probably had an internal revolt. When you are the only officer in 300 square miles with no backup with a bunch off Mexican drug smugglers you want something besides a 9mm. I cannot think of a major police agency in Texas that issues 9mm all I know of issue mostly 40 s&w some 357 SIG.
 
RustyShackelford: Dallas PD has a similar deal with issuing the P226/229 in 9mm, and officers can personal purchase one in .357 sig and carry it if they qualify with it.

As far as using an Apex trigger, that's going to be a no-go. S&W would never authorize it, and without that they wont do warranty work, replacements, etc.

ShelbyV8: Dallas PD issues 9mm, 2nd largest agency in the state right behind Houston. Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P is basically the same bullet as what is in the Gold Dot LE .357 sig loading that TXDPS was using, run a few hundred FPS slower. It performs fairly similarly to the .357 sig in testing, and you get a few more rounds in the gun. The actual caliber in this case is fairly comparable.

Also there is no such thing as an "internal revolt" in that large of an agency over something like this. Out of about 2,500 sworn personnel, there are going to be about 10%-15% who are "gun people" and actually care about the pistol they carry and the caliber its in. So 250-300 troopers, if that. That's not nearly enough to start a dialogue with the brass, push through the union etc. Also all the recruits coming in could be "gun people" and care about this, but since they don't have a job yet they aren't going to make a peep about it.

My agency went from a list of approved weapons to a city issued pistol several years ago. We are a large agency, 1,500+. We went to a pistol that had horrible reliability issues (we had made the incoming cadet classes purchase their own), to the point the manufacture just shipped new pistols to the range to replace ones we sent in. They didn't even try to fix them. The most common comment from my fellow officers: "Hey you want to buy a gun? I can get rid of my _____________ now that the cities giving me a gun." Most in LE aren't gun people, and would just as happily shoot a Hi-Point as a Nighthawk if the city gave them the Hi-Point.

-Jenrick
 
Parts; warranty details....

I see the points made in the last forum post. It's true that Smith & Wesson may void out any service pistols with Apex or BowieTacticalConcepts.com type features.
I'm interested in the new SIG P227 .45acp. To my knowledge, the IN State Police now issue the P227R with + results. ;)
My local sheriff's office(1200+ sworn personnel) has used the Glock 21 & 30 .45acp since 2002 with few problems. A patrol deputy in the early 2000s had a ND within 2 weeks of carrying a Glock 21 but there were not many accidents or NDs after that. The sworn deputies used the Speer Gold Dot 230gr +P JHP. Some captains & LTs packed Glock 40s or 9x19mm but most used the Glock 21 sidearm.

The police chief in Knoxville TN reportedly authorized the SIG P220R DA/SA .45acp over the older Glock 22s for sworn officers. He mandated the patrol officers to have five/05 duty magazines too. :eek:
No word on if the Knoxville PD will switch to the P227R or another .45acp yet.
 
Last I heard, a faster twist and enhancing lockup had addressed some earlier complaints about the M&P 9's inherent accuracy with a wide range of commonly used duty ammo.

I'd heard of a small number of extractors that had been determined to have been "over-molded", and which, when replaced with new production extractors, ran just fine in the guns.

A couple years ago the standard M&P extractor also received a revision to give it a sharper hook and a bit more negative rake, which was explained to me to be intended to help some folks who may be shooting hotter loads.

According to someone at LASD (FTU staff), their M&P 9's have been running like tops, and they've got a fair number of them that have been run out to many thousands of rounds (for testing), and they're very happy with the new guns being received and issued.

I sometimes chuckle at the way limited infor press releases are spun on gun forums. One brand has a minor problem (which is probably more shooter-related than actually gun related), and it's a "sign" that the gun model is not worthy ... but if another brand has some similar issues in the hands of new recruits, it's no big deal and not the fault of the gun. :rolleyes:

No small amount of brand bias at work on many of the gun forums. :neener:

Having 'seen behind the curtain' about how some reported issues are actually a bit different than how they're perceived by the gun enthusiasts on forums, or even sometimes reported by line staff (meaning not FTU/armorer staff) who may not be able to grasp and understand the underlying reason(s) for what they're seeing, hearing, etc ... I've learned it's often best to wait until repair techs and engineers can arrive at accurate conclusions after studying reported "problems".

Sometimes it may simply be a fine dance where a minor gun production issue may have surfaced ... the particular ammo being used may have an issue ... some less experienced shooters may be contributing to their own issues ... a vendor's supplied magazine, or magazine parts may have an issue ... agency/shooter maintenance practices may be less-than-ideal (or even proper) ... or any combination of any/all of the above.

Sometimes gun enthusiasts tend to try and spin equipment issues to favor a particular bias, or preconception, or even treat their favored make/model of firearm as if it were their favorite sports team, allowing their loyalty to sway their perception (or acceptance) of issues.

It's a gun. A piece of safety equipment. It's a machine.

Operator error is responsible for more "gun problems" than just about anything else, day in & day out.
 
Bexar said:
Returning to SIG P-226 until issues can possibly be resolved.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...andguns-reliability-issues-returns-sig-sauer/

Ibid:

As you are aware I approved the adoption of the Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm as the Department’s service handgun beginning with Recruit School A14. However, we have been experiencing malfunctions during Recruit School firearms training, which is unacceptable, and I have suspended the transition to the Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm.

Even if the manufacturer is able to address our issues over the next week, we cannot afford to risk the extra training time that was added to address transition contingincies. Education, Training and Research will continue to work with the manufacturer on this issue, but today, Trooper Trainees will be issued Sig Sauer 357 handguns, which we have in our inventory as a precaution.
Click to expand...
It begs question why Texas DPS needs SiG Sauer when Ruger SR9 can be procured for much less. While many Americans eat "macaroni & cheese" these people get $900 handguns.....that is crazy!
 
PabloJ said:
It begs question why Texas DPS needs SiG Sauer when Ruger SR9 can be procured for much less. While many Americans eat "macaroni & cheese" these people get $900 handguns.....that is crazy!
Click to expand...
How many LEAs use Rugers? Probably not many.
 
I am sure the DPS did look at the Rugers.

But I also have no doubt they tested them, or know LEO organizations that did test them, and have found them wanting in some area.

Not saying they are bad guns but I'm sure they have been looked into.

Deaf
 
The M&P9 is the known problem child of the bunch because all four calibers (9mm, .40 S&W, .357 SIG, and .45 ACP) use the same extractor
Click to expand...
That'd be news to my agency as our problems initially were only with the M&P-45 (since rectified by S&W). I gotta admit, I'm more inclined to go on what I've seen and experienced, and what I've heard from about experiences from people I know, that what I read on the internet. We shoot a lot with our M&Ps and haven't experienced the problems Texas DPS allegedly has ... mebbe they shoot way more'n we do ... way, way more ... heh. Or mebbe we just have better armorers?

While the TX DPS may not "be happy with the S&M M&P 9MM" there are a LOT more departments out there using the M&Ps and we are strangely not hearing about any problems from them ...

While I can live with the M&P in 9/.40/.45 ... I would rather have issued SIGs ... But it is a budget thing, you know.
 
Doesn't surprise me. For some reason the FS 9mm models had the most issues. Poor accuracy,ejection issues,horrible triggers. I know S&W has made "slow" improvements over the years to the M&P,most in the last two years.

S&W recently made numerous upgrades(the trigger bar, slide catch, sear, SHB, barrel, sights and finish) on the LE #151215 FS 9mm model trying to keep their foothold in the LE market.

These new upgrades,minus the PVD finish,have been incorporated into the latest M&Ps.

The versions with the least problems were the 45s. Aside from the early crummy triggers ,they were the most accurate and reliable.

S&W still refuses to acknowledge publicly the accuracy issue with FS 9mm models but has made recent changes to help correct this. They still will not fix or replace my gun and said it was "in-spec".

Can't blame Texas DPS one bit. The SIG system is a good one and still valid IMHO today.
 
Deltaboy said:
DPS needs to get on the ball since it is my tax dollars they are working with.
Click to expand...
You're not the only one upset. Looking through april issue of J&G sales paper got me into Yosemite Sam mood.:cuss: Page 17 Used Glocks Glock 22 Gen 4 Polymer Frame with Night Sights.......Law Enforcemnt trade ins.....VG condition $469.95 VG+ condition $489.95. Gee, it must be nice to play with someone else's money.....oh yeh!:rolleyes:
 
S&W still refuses to acknowledge publicly the accuracy issue with FS 9mm models but has made recent changes to help correct this.
Click to expand...
You talking about the accuracy issues that seem to exist only on certain internet gun forums?

Lots of these pistols sold since '04. Sure there are a few lemons out there.
 
Lemons & lemonade.....

It's does not take a MBA or a MIT engineer to understand that if you increase production 2/3 times in a compressed amount of time(2-3 years) then - QC or problems will start up.
1000s of new gun owners "drank the S&W Kool-Aid" & just had to get new M&Ps in the last 2/3 calendar years. Many PDs switched to 9x19mm or returned to 9mm too. Author & tactics trainer Massad Ayoob had a gun magazine article in recent months where he explained a lot of PD range cadre/procurement officers went to 9x19mm because of the low recoil, higher mag capacity & more choices in weapons/duty rounds. New Mexico State Troopers also cut the .357sig & chose the M&P 9mm for duty use. I've yet to read or hear any - reports from them.
If the execs at S&W have any sense, they'll R&D a few fixes to improve the M&P line. Of course, these are the same guys who keep adding "lawyer locks" to DA revolvers. :cuss:
 
ShelbyV8 writes:

I can't see them going to 9X19, they probably called off the M&P more because of the caliber than the malfunction problems.
Click to expand...

This is unlikely. I'm sure they knew in what caliber the M&P9 is chambered when they began the testing. It wasn't a surprise.
 
Old Dog:"You talking about the accuracy issues that seem to exist only on certain internet gun forums?"

No,the ones that actually exist in reality.
 
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