Texas DPS not happy with S&W M&P 9MM.

[Old Dog]

No,the ones that actually exist in reality.

Your sample of one? Just askin' ... I've been around a few hundred of these pistols for the past eight years, myself. The platform itself, on average, has never seemed to display much more than average accuracy to me, but individual examples have proved pretty good.

 

[Ky Larry]

Lots of politics involved in govt contracts. Plus payoffs, bribes, and corruption. Not saying this happened on this particular deal, just saying it happens.
S&W will fix problems when they are forced to. Look at GM and Toyota. Companies run by bean counters only change when the bottom line is affected.

 

[rodinal220]

Old Dog

Your sample of one? Just askin' ...

You need to get out more, there are plenty of folks with lemon guns(FS 9mm M&P) from S&W. Go speak with Grant at G&R Tactical,he sells a lot of M&Ps. His personal FS 9mm shoots like 7 inch groups. He arranged with Storm Lake to make oversize gunsmith fit barrels.

You are correct that the M&P generally does not offer stellar accuracy.Those that do are more the exception. The ones with the best track record are the .45acp models.

Smith and Wesson has made numerous changes to the barrel and changed the dimensions on the locking block. The crappy triggers also did not help accuracy...so S&W redesigned the major fire control parts.They learned a lot from the Shields known problems.

My Chinese made Type 213 9mm will outshout my M&P any day.

 

[Confederate]

One would hope S&W would find a way to produce great auto pistols once and for all. After the mess with their 39/59 series, it brought out the 459, 559 and 659 (which were all outstanding). With modern production standards, a company with its reputation should be able to produce a gun that functions reliably. Decades ago, reliability was an issue; but beginning with the Beretta 92, autos began appearing on the market with stunning reliability, and Smith was one manufacturer that produced not only beautiful autos, but ultra-reliable ones. (The 645 would even feed empty cases!) Today, these stainless steel guns would be too expensive to knock out for less than a grand, but any defects in a polymer gun should have manifested themselves early in the development process and been addressed then. Sending people extractors afterwards would be cold comfort, especially if they were sent to grieving widows/widowers in the aftermath of a police shooting where the gun failed to extract! "Here's a flag, your husband's shield and oh yes, Smith & Wesson wanted you to have this improved extractor for your husband's service pistol in the event you have to protect your life in the future. It takes only moments to install and comes with this tiny plastic bag so the parts don't get lost. Oh, and good luck!"

 

[wally]

S&W still refuses to acknowledge publicly the accuracy issue with FS 9mm models but has made recent changes to help correct this.

I don't see any 9mm issues at all. In fact about a year ago I bought an M&P 40c and ordered a "replacement" S&W M&P 9c barrel from Midway and a few 9c mags. Barrel dropped right in, didn't need to touch the sights and its been perfect shooting both 9mm and .40S&W ammo. So I'd say the mechanical accuracy of the design is spot on.

I also have a very early M&P 40 (black striker) and had the same experience with a Storm-Lake threaded 9mm conversion barrel when I got my first suppressor -- dropped right in, no adjustment of the red dot optic required. I did update the striker because I was getting ignition problems with some of my reloads.

 

[Bexar]

Lots of politics involved in govt contracts. Plus payoffs, bribes, and corruption. Not saying this happened on this particular deal, just saying it happens.
S&W will fix problems when they are forced to. Look at GM and Toyota. Companies run by bean counters only change when the bottom line is affected.

Look how much controversy the M9 selection process generated and still does.

New York bean counters who know nothing about customer base and are only interested in serving stockholders while serving lip service to customers has closed more doors than anything.

 

[wally]

S&W will fix problems when they are forced to.

I find this very hard to believe given how responsive they have been fixing what few issues I've had with S&W handguns these past 10 years.

I can't believe they wouldn't be falling all over themselves to get to the bottom of an issue with guns sold to a high profile agency.

 

[Old Dog]

You need to get out more, there are plenty of folks with lemon guns(FS 9mm M&P) from S&W.

rodinal220, you clearly didn't read through my two previous posts. I work with this pistol and have seen a sample of several hundred of these pistols over the past eight years. In fact, I am an instructor for my employer (academy, line officers and tactical teams). If there were as many significant problems with the platform as some here would have us believe, I kinda think we'd have noted them by now.

But hey, believe whatever you want.

 

[tomrkba]

<Deleted>

Modern Service Weapons Blog reported that S&W recently changed the twist rate to 1:10" from 1:18.75". They stated that this change seems to have solved the accuracy problems.

 

[ugaarguy]

Several posts have been deleted. Let's keep the discussion focused on the S&W M&P pistols, experiences with them, and references to known issues.

 

[rodinal220]

[QUOTEyou clearly didn't read through my two previous posts. I work with this pistol and have seen a sample of several hundred of these pistols over the past eight years. In fact, I am an instructor for my employer (academy, line officers and tactical teams). If there were as many significant problems with the platform as some here would have us believe, I kinda think we'd have noted them by now.

But hey, believe whatever you want.
][/QUOTE]

Yes,I read your posts. Please do not take this the wrong way but your position does not impress me,was it supposed too???? Please do not try the old I'm a certified this that and the other thing,certification does not equal competence.

You are not the only one that carried a pie plate on your chest. I know very well how equipment is selected for PDs and by whom. Just because Agency X uses it doesn't mean squat.

Most cops do not shoot very well,mediocre at best. The pen is mightier than the sword during qualification.

S&W has QC issues.They have had all types of problems with the M&P line,Shield,Body Guard lines. Use Google.

I guess I and S&W were delusional when they called me and stated my returned BG38 could not be fixed(20% miss fires and piss poor accuracy) and they offered to give me a new revolver. The tech stated it was doing everything I wrote in my letter.

I was pretty set back when they said there was nothing wrong with my M&P FS 9mm. It patterns and does not group,shooting it past 15 yards is pointless. It vertically strings on slow fire drills. I have tried all types of ammo.
I have cap and ball revolvers that shoot better than the M&P FS 9mm.

You need to go out into the industry and look at all the changes made to the M&P,most just recently.

While I enjoy retirement and no longer enjoy the company of the golden children that rule PDs. I still shoot competitively and do training as a sideline and see hundreds of firearms as well. Most folks have to pour some bucks into the M&P models to get them somewhat shootable,the average cop wouldn't notice.

APEX has a loyal following for a reason. I notice that folks love their M&P triggers once they put $150.00-200 worth of APEX parts in their gun. The APEX extractor is good upgrade.

Grant at G&R Tactical states that once he hard fits the custom SL barrels and a good trigger job(APEX) that his then 7" gun patterns became bullseye level groups with a poly gun.

The accuracy issue is real with many (2006-2012+ish)Full Size M&P 9mms,NOT ALL. Most 9mm M&Ps shoot ok and some better than others.Some are total crap like my pistol and others.

Some folks are competent investigators others think they are. You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink.

 

[Drail]

Caveat emptor.

 

[Old Dog]

Ah, rodinal220 ... by no means did I desire to get in a competitive urination situation with you. I most certainly was not attempting to impress you (this is, after all, the internet, where we are all mighty heroes with advanced degrees and certificates). My position doesn't render me an "expert" by any stretch of the imagination. I just get to shoot a bit more than most, and watch a lot of people shoot. And, I simply wanted to point out that I have viewed a far more sizable sample size of the platform in question that others who've posted in this thread.

I was merely stating that my agency hasn't experienced widespread problems with the M&Ps. We've had isolated issues that the company rather swiftly rectified.

I don't disagree with much of what you say. On the whole, I'd guess that maybe 10% of our people are serious about shooting; most either passively submit to semiannual qualification while others sweat through the process. The whole issue re the "golden children that rule PDs" is best left to discussion over beverages, another time, perhaps. I myself have no illusions remaining.

The Apex fixes are excellent. I believe the guns should come this way from the factory. I am, by the way, not unfamiliar with "the industry" and have kept up on the evolution of the M&P. I don't believe the company's QC is in as dire straits as you charge, nor have I experienced the abysmal customer service you apparently did ...

I think we need to go out and shoot from the bench all of our issue pistols ... perhaps this explains the dismal level of accuracy some of our folks display.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Funny I have two M&Ps from the first or second year of production. My M&P 9C has shot well over 10,000 rounds with NO malfunctions. Both it and the fullsized model I have are superbly accurate. I guess the issues do exist but its not ALL of them to be sure.

 

[Nom de Forum]

I have been reading Old Dog's posts on THR for a while now and IMO if anyone here has enough experience to make an accurate assessment of the average quality of M&P production it is him. The few I have shot ran great and I was a little more accurate at speed with them than my Glocks that I have been shooting for 23 years due most likely from the superior ergonomic fit to my hand.

 

[RustyShackelford]

FWIW.....

A popular chain in my metro area is now selling M&Ps in .40/9x19mm for $479.00 USD.
In 2011, I paid $500.00 USD for my full size 9x19mm M&P(no internal lock or mag safety, regular sights, manual ambi safety).
I qualify for Buds Police Supply pistol prices(which sometimes have night sights & includes 03 factory magazines). The sale prices run from $399 to $455.00 USD.

As posted, with some TLC, many newer(2013/2014 production era) Military and Police models should be accurate/smooth shooting.
It may void the S&W factory warranty plan but if you want to be a "Top Gun" with a M&P that might be required.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I wonder if S&W subcontracted for their parts for the M&P?

Maybe that was the problem.

Deaf