divemedic said:
Sorry, I was at work and didn't get a chance to come back.
A lot to answer as to why my decision was made the way it was. Let me restate that I am not saying that reloading is a poor choice. I am saying that reloading is a poor choice FOR ME, and furthermore, if the only reason you want to reload is to save money, you are mistaken.
Its your choice to make in that regard. If I made it sound like I thought you should handload in any of my posts, that wasn't my intention.
I enjoy handloading as a hobby, but even if I just did it to save money, it would still be worth it based on my figuring of the costs. Whether I could actually do it just to save money is another matter entirely.
Yes, I will admit that you can reload and get better accuracy, but that comes at a cost of more time, which increases expense. After all, to get the sort of accuracy you are looking for requires much more QA and better components, right? So comparing costs using the cheapest supplies you can get, and claiming production rates of over 200 rounds per hour AND claiming that you are getting more accurate is disingenuous.
That depends. I have found the accuracy of my high volume production handloads to be better in general than cheaper factory options like Blazer Brass, UMC, and WWB. I can also tune them to shoot point of aim in my guns (which can especially be a problem with fixed sight guns and factory ammo). Yes, it does take some time to find the right load combination, but after that I can mass produce that load for less than factory with better results than factory.
At the same time, reloading for bulk to save money does not allow you to take the time to reload for more accuracy. There is a curve, where your cost of production versus quality meets your production efficiency. Before I worked as a medic, I worked in a factory where we made steel pipe. Every time we manufactured a product, we had to analyze the production cost, to include QA, materials, and labor. Sometimes it just was not worth it to produce a given product.
See above. Making ammunition for my own use is not the same as making steel pipe (or anything else) to sell. Its set up specifically for my needs, and it might not meet others needs.
My time is worth money. Every minute that I spend doing labor to save money costs me a minute that I am not earning money. That is also why I pay someone to cut my grass, and why I use a drive through car wash. If I spend 4 hours a month mowing grass to avoid paying the lawn guy $80 a month, and that costs me 8 hours of production at my money earning job where I earn $30 an hour (or even $15 an hour), what have I really saved? Depending on the class, I make anywhere from $18 an hour to over $300 an hour teaching classes to medical facilities, 1 to 3 days a week. (I only wish I could do that full time- $300 an hour?) I average $35 an hour while teaching. If I gave that up to save $10 an hour reloading that would not make any sense.
Your time is only worth money if you would actually be working during the time you spend handloading (or doing anything else). I don't get paid to sit on my butt and watch TV, and I enjoy handloading at least as much as that. I also mow my own lawn. I don't enjoy it, but I have the time to do it. If I paid someone $80 a month to mow it, I'd be out $80 because I have the time to do it myself. Now, it might be worth it to you to pay someone $80 to mow your lawn, but the only way that it saves you money to do that is if you work during all the time that you could have spent mowing the lawn and make more than the $80.
Military and the more common civilian calibers benefit from the economy of scale, in that bulk production saves money. Comparing a reload to these rounds does not result in a savings large enough to compensate me for my time. More exotic rounds might, and should I begin shooting these, I may take another look at reloading.
And for you that is a fine decision. I still take issue with the idea that leisure time is worth money, but you can figure it anyway you want to. It is, after all, your time.
Look at the examples of the deals I have gotten in the last year, and tell me that reloading can beat that:
.357Sig Speer Lawman RHT Lead free ammo: $163 per 1,000
I don't shoot or load 357 SIG, but in that instance, probably not. That is a fantastic deal, but its probably one that cannot often be repeated.
.45ACP FMJ $240 per 1,000
Easily with lead bullets, see comments on lead bullets below. About $100-$150/k, depending on whether I have the brass already or not. Less actually since I buy components in bulk and I was figuring prices on the 1000 at a time purchase and including shipping in the amount. One saves on components and hazmat/shipping fees by buying in larger amounts.
5.56mm milsurp $275 for 1,000 rounds
Perhaps not by as much, but about $150/k for 55 grain FMJ if I already have the brass. Even if I have to buy the brass (once fired of course), I'd still be saving $50 or $75 over that cost, and you got a great deal at today's prices. I'll be honest here, I didn't bother loading either .223 or 9x19 when it was $99/1000 for factory. I've always done .45ACP, .38 Special, and other various more expensive factory rounds.
7.62 Nato $225 for 500 rounds
Can't comment on this one, I don't load or shoot .308/7.62x51mm.
Another point I wanted to touch on was the statement I made concerning lead bullets being inferior to metal jacketed bullets. I had always understood that lead bullets increase leading. However, if that fouling has to be cleaned from your barrel, or increases barrel wear, this must be factored into the overall cost of using reloads. The fact that professional competition shooters use lead means nothing to me, as they have a MUCH larger budget for replacing firearms (as well as the free firearms they get- I wish) than I do.
Leading is a result of using the wrong bullet for the job. I load lead in all my handgun chamberings (with the exception of the ammo I shoot in my P7) and I get almost no leading what so ever. My 681 is easier to clean after shooting my lead handloads than it is to clean after shooting factory jacketed ammo. Lead bullets that are too hard for the velocity they are loaded to don't expand at the base when fired and bite into the rifling. When that happens the hot gasses pass the bullet as it travels down the bore. Those gases melt the lead and it sticks to the bore. That tends to be the primary cause of leading at handgun velocities. Of course the opposite also happens, too soft lead at high velocities also tends to lead the bore, and that is cured by harder lead bullets. Its all about using the right bullet for the job.
When I clean my guns after shooting lead I generally need one or two passes with a brush and a couple of patches. After that, the bore is pristine. I can't say the same is true shooting jacketed bullets. It takes a lot more effort to clean the bore after shooting those.
If Julie G is using lead, so what? Her monthly ammo budget is more than my mortgage, plus shooting is her full time job- and I am willing to bet that she doesn't spend her firearm time at a reloading bench. The same for Jarret, or any other shooter who makes a living at it.
Some professional shooters probably do handload. Those that don't are also not shooting WWB, UMC, Blazer Brass, or military surplus ammo. They have sponsors, and the sponsors provide the ammo. That ammo, while factory, is much higher end than anything regular factory ammo buyers get for range time.
Its also a fact that a lot of non-professional competition shooters use lead. The huge majority of people shooting bullseye, IDPA, USPSA, etc., are not professionals. Some of them are fantastic shooters, but they have real jobs to support the habit.
One also has to consider this: None of the factory loads commonly available as target ammo make IDPA power factor in .38 Special. You have to have a +P load with a fairly heavy bullet to get there. Folks shoot the Remington 125 grain +P SJHP available at ChiComMart in SSR all the time. It makes a pretty impressive bang and flash, so no one will ever question it, but it doesn't make power factor. A 125 grain bullet has to make 1000fps to make power factor. A .38 Special +P 125 grain from the factory is lucky to make 950fps. All the standard pressure stuff is no where near making it, especially those 130 grain FMJs that a lot of people buy. I'd have to buy $20+ a box (for 50 rounds) 158 grain +P loads to make power factor. However, my mass produced handload makes it easily and costs me about 1/4 of what 50 rounds of factory would. Sure, I could buy cheaper ammo (and cheat), but I'd rather loose honestly than win dishonestly.
The last thing I want to address is availability. There are those who claim that ammo is unavailable, and use their stock of reloading components to say something like, "Wal mart is out of ammo, but I have enough components on hand to make 1,000 rounds, therefore it makes sense to reload."
Hogwash. I can just as easily say, "Midway is out of primers, but I have over 20,000 rounds of factory ammo in the house, sucks to be a reloader." Availability is even, as far as I am concerned.
The low availability and higher cost of both ammo and reloading supplies are temporary in nature, and are related to a combination of Obama panic buyers, people buying in speculation of a ban so they can resell at a profit, economic factors, and the large amounts of ammo being used by the military overseas. As these conditions ease, so will ammo supply and cost.
I don't disagree with you here. Supply will eventually get better and prices on everything will go down. The advantage for handloaders right now is only there if they have the components and the factory ammo buyer doesn't have the ammo already. The reverse is also true of course.
