Thanks to Onstar the govt can now listen to you in the car

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Some of the safety aspects are intresting (ie when airbags deploy, 911 is called even if you are unconsious.)

I wouldn't mind a system that only did that, and was otherwise un-snoopable (I'd have to rig a rather elaborate 'selective-kill switch' that would automatically re-connect the transmitting antenna when the airbags went off.)

On second thought, there's a product idea. Let's see if it's viable. How many THR-ers would pay $199 for something like that? (PM me.)

As for myself, I will not start worrying about the Black Helicopter brigade until using OnStar is mandatory in every car, and/or disabling/modifying OnStar systems renders the car undrivable.

On a side note, you do realise that, when this day comes, it will be far too late... right?
 
I have only bought one new vechicle in my life, probably my last new vehicle. Now it has 118K mi.,on purpose I wanted bench seats no cruise control, do have a cassette deck, full size spare. I have no cellphone, I have a map, compass, flashlight, roll of quarters for phone calls and a CCW or two.

My driving routine is boring, I dodge orange bbls and curse alternate routes that have been closed.

Sure comforting to know how my tax dollars are spent, so nice the gummit finds me so interesting, I'm sure it is to protect me of course. I feel so much safer , I know they have MY best interests in mind.:uhoh: :rolleyes:
 
Elminster

What type of software do you use in your laptop? I've been wanting to do this mod to my Avalanche for a while now but I would like to find some software that will plan routes for you and alert you when upcoming turns are coming. Have you found anything like that?

Also, do you have a link for the info on how to do the serial cable mod? I've seen a few but wondered if yours might have some more information.
 
I'll bet Robert Heinlein is laughing off somewhere in the 9th dimension. He predicted this 50 years ago, but his cars could fly.
 
Don't kid yourself, it's not only Onstar doing this. ANY new Mercedes, Porsche, Jaguar, and BMW can do the same and MORE.

At anytime the owner of a new Mercedes can call up Mercedes Roadside service and ask where the car is at that particular time AND at what speed it is traveling. I woulden't want to bore you with more features but this and more is all possible and IS happening right now as we speak. The police state has arrived and WE the consumers have paid for it as well!

:banghead: :cuss: :fire: :evil: :barf:
 
Hasn't this kind of stuff been standard in Europe for a while? I seem to remember that commercial vehicles there have been required to have speed and time tracking devices installed to determine if the driver and his logs match. Tickets are written off this info. They probably have more sophisticated stuff since I first heard about this. Perhaps they're doing it on private vehicles too.
 
OnStar is like many technological devices developed by private industry in hopes the public will buy the product and therefore make a profit. Plain and simple capitalism. GM and it's developer did not manufacture this device with the idea that the government could use it to spy on us. That the government may have recognized this opportunity and siezed it should not be surprising. Nor should it be surprising that users of OnStar bought this product in blind faith, ignorantly trusting GM to fully disclose the capabilities and potential to abuse this service. Currently I believe the good far outweighs the bad. How current are paper maps? And what if you have an emergency in an area without cell reception, no phones and emergency services nearby? OnStar can make the call, send emergency services or give accurate directions when paper maps are not current, plans change or you're just plain lost. Whether it's worth it and how it's used is up to the consumer. Just like TV the consumer has a choice to buy or not. Caveat emptor.
 
Just heard one on the radio where a lady called OnStar because she couldn't find her car in a parking lot ....

What is this world coming to?

And to think our ancestors crossed the Atlantic in leaky rolling "ships" and crossed the prairie in covered wagons.

edit: and the cellphone coverage was terrible back then, too!

I lost my car once at Arco arena - it took my wife and I about 90 minutes to find it. We were in a hurry to get in and did not note the location or even the section when we went in. Compounding the problem was that it was her moms car - a light blue Olds 88 and there were at least a hundred of them in the lot...

So what if she used the system to find her car? She pays for it, they can do it so might as well use it. As far as ancient ocean travel, I do not think the survival rate was near as good as modern transportation.

OnStar and all those auto nav systems are, to the automakers, just another way to get into your wallet. $3,000 worth of electronics to replace a $2.95 street map? Feh.

I'm not surprised the feds are accessing OnStar. No doubt they justify it by saying that thre terrorists or drug dealers might perhaps maybe be caught if they violate the privacy of 100 million people. Another things that's always worried me is that sooner or later, OnStar will be hacked, and some dark night, a techno-crook will unlock the doors to your Escalade just as the carjackers arrive.

Its more like $350-$500 worth of electronics and saying it replaces a streetmap is incredibly over simplified. We drive around Austin enough to know that many roads are not marked. Also having a map does not plan your route or necessicarily tell you which streets are one way, etc.

What should anger all of you is that the general populace is apparently OK with being babysat like this.

I do my part by trying to educate everyone I get into a political discussion with.

As for myself, I will not start worrying about the Black Helicopter brigade until using OnStar is mandatory in every car, and/or disabling/modifying OnStar systems renders the car undrivable.

That is why I keep my my 1968 VW bug, where the only thing with a transistor in it is the radio.

The general population is not worried that the .gov will trace their route from soccer practice to the grocery store or even from work to an illicit rendezvous with their mistress. I am not even worried about them tracing my route from gun store to gun store to range to computer store to work, etc.

If I had the system and a reason to worry, I would disable it. Until then, I refuse to not enjoy the technological luxuries of our day for fear someone is looking over my shoulder.

OnStar, for the record, rocks. It came in my Grand Prix two years ago when I bought it and I let the service expire. Shortly after that, I ripped the whole thing apart; an hour or so, a soldering iron, and some inexpensive wire later I have a GPS reciever to use in the car!

It was trivial to grab the signal from the OnStar's GPS reciever and run a serial cable to the front of the car. Now all I do is hook up my laptop for a "sort of free" GPS nav. system!

BRAVO! Excellent use of proprietary equipment.

Years ago, when they started it, people screamed about potential privacy invasion.

Now, years later, after society has been properly conditioned, they turn the privacy invasion concerns into percieved benifits in thier commercials.

Sad thing is, it's so blatant that all you need is a particle of freedom in your mind to see that privacy is thrown out the window by this system.

It has been said: Those that would trade a little temporary safety for liberty deserve niether.

I think that statement applies in this case.

So - a little girl calling in to Onstar because her mom had a siezure is an invasion of privacy? Or the feature where it calls in automatically when your airbags deploy - thats also an invasion?

Please show one example where the owner of the car was violated in some way by onstar. If I was engaged in terrorism or criminal enterprise, I would thing twice before using it - but gun owner status is hardly radical enough to draw attention these days.
 
A coworker of mine took his car in because the Onstar was malfunctioning in some way (don't remember how exactly). He gets the car back from the dealership and is driving home when 6 cop cars with lights blazing pull him over. He is forcibly removed from his vechicle with a gun in his ear. He suffers from severe arthritis and has trouble standing up and walking without his cane. The cops got a call from Onstar reporting the vehicle was stolen. Cops refused to belive that it was, in fact, his car and is driven back to the dealership to prove it. Scared the crap out of his family, and the service was cancelled the next morning.

Beware of a malfunctioning system - especially after they fix it.
 
Don't kid yourself, it's not only Onstar doing this. ANY new Mercedes, Porsche, Jaguar, and BMW can do the same and MORE.

At anytime the owner of a new Mercedes can call up Mercedes Roadside service and ask where the car is at that particular time AND at what speed it is traveling. I woulden't want to bore you with more features but this and more is all possible and IS happening right now as we speak. The police state has arrived and WE the consumers have paid for it as well!

There are only two services - Onstar and ATX - ATX is the provider behind Mercedes Tele Aid and all the other branded systems.

As for being able to call and see what your car is doing - I think thats pretty cool. Its my car, why not have a way to see how its being used. Think about it people - if the government starts using the system to write speeding tickets, it will kill the system.

Wait! you say - they just want to get everyone used to it so they can require it! It is possible, but unlikely. The equipment is expensive (but will certainly keep getting cheaper until the cost is negligable) and who wants to pay for monitoring? Requiring the basic capabilities could ammount to a 4th ammendment violation.

In the mean time, if I am rich enough to afford a Mercedes and crazy enough to let someone borrow it, I like the option of being able to track it.

But if the government is forcing you to use this system, I would love to hear about it.
 
I would think that owner would have a SERIOUS cause of action that would at the very least mean he would no longer be making payments on his car.

Thats a story that would be worth "settling out of court on undisclosed terms" for.

But seriously - this is a techno world we live in. Things break, things go wrong. Bad things happen and the consequences are often unpleasant. Of course, living in a cave, away from civilization has its own risks.

As bad as that story is, it would not keep me from using the system. I seriously doubt that the car can report its self stolen. Somebody at Onstar screwed up and flagged their car as stolen.

The part that is a little unbelieveable is - if it is your car, you should have ID and registration that shows its your car. Maybe you have to give Onstart a limited power of attorney to report your car stolen, but if I am stopped and I have ID and registration that says its my car and I am arrested anyway, then a whole lot of people are going to be paying me money.

Not to cast dispersions on your friend, but after thinking about it, I am highly skeptical.
 
He wasn't arrested, but the cops didn't believe him initially - they trusted the system. He got driven back to the dealership to verify his story and then was let go. Still, the forcibly removed part bothered me.

This happen a couple months ago, and I don't remember the specifics of how the system wasn't fixed properly. I believe that it was within 15 minutes of turning the key, so it was probably something as you describe.
 
Requiring the basic capabilities could ammount to a 4th ammendment violation.
What a laugh. Do you really think the 4th Amendment is still in force in the United States? At whichever point it becomes an inconvenience to the government, another exception will be carved out of it. At this point, the exeptions pretty much make the rule a joke already.
 
So what about the black boxes they are now placing in automobiles that record your speed, braking, accel/deceleration, etc. They are placing these in the cars without the knowledge of the owners. They can then use that information in accident investigations and use that information against you in a court of law. That is how they were able to reconstruct the accident that Rep. Janklow was in that killed the motorcyclist.

Talk about a Fourth Amendment issue.

GM started placing these in cars in 1994, Isuzu in 2000, and Ford started in 2001.

Here is the list of those cars and companies that install these things.

STORY AND SOURCE

Make Model

General Motors: 1994


Buick Roadmaster

Cadillac Fleetwood

Chevrolet Caprice

Pontiac Grand Prix

General Motors: 1995

Buick LeSabre

Buick Park Avenue

Buick Regal

Buick Roadmaster

Cadillac Concours

Cadillac Deville

Cadillac Eldorado

Cadillac Fleetwood

Cadillac Seville

Chevrolet Caprice

Chevrolet Impala

Chevrolet Lumina

Chevrolet Metro

Chevrolet Monte Carlo

Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme

Oldsmobile Eighty Eight

Oldsmobile Ninety Eight

Pontiac Bonneville

Pontiac Grand Prix

Pontiac Firefly

Saturn all models

General Motors: 1996

Buick LeSabre

Buick Park Avenue

Buick Regal

Buick Riviera

Buick Roadmaster

Buick Skylark

Cadillac Concours

Cadillac Deville

Cadillac Eldorado

Cadillac Fleetwood

Cadillac Seville

Chevrolet Astro

Chevrolet Camaro

Chevrolet Caprice

Chevrolet Cavalier

Chevrolet Express

Chevrolet Impala

Chevrolet Lumina

Chevrolet Metro

Chevrolet Monte Carlo

Geo Tracker

GMC Safari

GMC Savana

Oldsmobile Achieva

Oldsmobile Aurora

Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme

Oldsmobile Eighty Eight

Oldsmobile Ninety Eight

Pontiac Bonneville

Pontiac Firebird

Pontiac Firefly

Pontiac Grand AM

Pontiac Grand Prix

Pontiac Sunfire

Saturn all models

General Motors: 1997

Buick Century

Buick LeSabre

Buick Park Avenue

Buick Regal

Buick Riviera

Buick Skylark

Cadillac Concours

Cadillac Deville

Cadillac Eldorado

Cadillac Seville

Chevrolet Astro

Chevrolet Camaro

Chevrolet Cavalier

Chevrolet Corvette

Chevrolet Express

Chevrolet Lumina

Chevrolet Malibu

Chevrolet Metro

Chevrolet Monte Carlo

Chevrolet Silverado

Chevrolet Suburban

Chevrolet Tahoe

Chevrolet Venture

Geo Tracker

GM EV1

GMC Safari

GMC Savana

GMC Sierra

GMC Suburban

GMC Yukon

Oldsmobile Achieva

Oldsmobile Aurora

Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme

Oldsmobile Eighty Eight

Oldsmobile Regency

Oldsmobile Silhouette

Pontiac Bonneville

Pontiac Firebird

Pontiac Firefly

Pontiac Grand AM

Pontiac Grand Prix

Pontiac Sunfire

Pontiac Trans Sport

Saturn All models

General Motors: 1998

Buick Century

Buick LeSabre

Buick Park Avenue

Buick Regal

Buick Riviera

Buick Skylark

Cadillac Commercial

Cadillac Deville

Cadillac Eldorado

Cadillac Seville

Chevrolet Astro

Chevrolet Blazer

Chevrolet Camaro

Chevrolet Cavalier

Chevrolet Corvette

Chevrolet Express

Chevrolet Lumina

Chevrolet Malibu

Chevrolet Metro

Chevrolet Monte Carlo

Chevrolet S10

Chevrolet S10 electric

Chevrolet Silverado

Chevrolet Suburban

Chevrolet Tahoe

Chevrolet Tracker

Chevrolet Venture

GMC Jimmy

GMC Safari

GMC Savana

GMC Sierra

GMC Sonoma

GMC Suburban

GMC Yukon

Oldsmobile Achieva

Oldsmobile Aurora

Oldsmobile Bravada

Oldsmobile Cutlass

Oldsmobile Eighty Eight

Oldsmobile Intrigue

Oldsmobile Regency

Oldsmobile Silhouette

Pontiac Bonneville

Pontiac Firebird

Pontiac Firefly

Pontiac Grand AM

Pontiac Grand Prix

Pontiac Sunfire

Pontiac Trans Sport

Saturn All models

General Motors: 1999

Buick Century

Buick LeSabre

Buick Park Avenue

Buick Regal

Buick Riveria

Cadillac Commercial

Cadillac Deville

Cadillac Eldorado

Cadillac Escalade

Cadillac Seville

Chevrolet Astro

Chevrolet Blazer

Chevrolet Camaro

Chevrolet Cavalier

Chevrolet Corvette

Chevrolet Express

Chevrolet Lumina

Chevrolet Malibu

Chevrolet Metro

Chevrolet Monte Carlo

Chevrolet S10

Chevrolet S10 Electric

Chevrolet Silverado

Chevrolet Suburban

Chevrolet Tahoe

Chevrolet Tracker

Chevrolet Venture

GM EV1

GMC Jimmy

GMC Safari

GMC Savana

GMC Sierra

GMC Sonoma

GMC Suburban

GMC Yukon

Oldsmobile Alero

Oldsmobile Aurora

Oldsmobile Bravada

Oldsmobile Cutlass

Oldsmobile Eighty Eight

Oldsmobile Intrigue

Oldsmobile Silhouette

Pontiac Bonneville

Pontiac Firebird

Pontiac Firefly

Pontiac Grand AM

Pontiac Grand Prix2

Pontiac Sunfire

Pontiac Trans Sport

Saturn all models

General Motors: 2000

Buick Century

Buick LeSabre

Buick Park Avenue

Buick Regal

Cadillac Deville

Cadillac Eldorado

Cadillac Escalade

Cadillac Seville

Chevrolet Astro

Chevrolet Blazer

Chevrolet Camaro

Chevrolet Cavalier

Chevrolet Corvette

Chevrolet Express

Chevrolet Impala

Chevrolet Lumina

Chevrolet Malibu

Chevrolet Metro

Chevrolet Monte Carlo

Chevrolet S10

Chevrolet Silverado

Chevrolet Silverado

Chevrolet Suburban

Chervrolet Suburban

Chevrolet Tahoe

Chevrolet Tahoe

Chevrolet Tracker

Chevrolet Venture

GMC Jimmy

GMC Safari

GMC Savana

GMC Sierra

GMC Sierra

GMC Sonoma

GMC Suburban

GMC Yukon

GMC Yukon

Oldsmobile Alero

Oldsmobile Bravada

Oldsmobile Intrigue

Oldsmobile Silhouette

Pontiac Bonneville

Pontiac Firebird

Pontiac Firefly

Pontiac Grand Am

Pontiac Grand Prix

Pontiac Montana

Pontiac Sunfire

Saturn all models but LS

General Motors: 2001

Buick Century

Buick LeSabre

Buick Park Avenue

Buick Regal

Buick Rendezvous

Cadillac Deville

Cadillac Eldorado

Cadillac Escalade

Cadillac Seville

Chevrolet Astro

Chevrolet Blazer

Chevrolet Camaro

Chevrolet Cavalier

Chevrolet Corvette

Chevrolet Express

Chevrolet Impala

Chevrolet Lumina

Chevrolet Malibu

Chevrolet Metro

Chevrolet Monte Carlo

Chevrolet S10

Chevrolet Silverado

Chevrolet Suburban

Chevrolet Tahoe

Chevrolet Tracker

Chevrolet Venture

GMC Jimmy

GMC Safari

GMC Savana

GMC Sierra

GMC Sonoma

GMC Suburban

GMC Yukon

Oldsmobile Alero

Oldsmobile Aurora

Oldsmobile Bravada

Oldsmobile Intrigue

Oldsmobile Silhouette

Pontiac Aztek

Pontiac Bonneville

Pontiac Firebird

Pontiac Firefly

Pontiac Grand Am

Pontiac Grand Prix

Pontiac Montana

Pontiac Sunfire

Saturn all models but LS

General Motors: 2002

Buick Century

Buick LeSabre

Buick Park Avenue

Buick Regal

Buick Rendezvous

Cadillac Deville

Cadillac Eldorado

Cadillac Escalade

Cadillac Seville

Chevrolet Avalanche

Chevrolet Astro

Chevrolet Blazer

Chevrolet Camaro

Chevrolet Cavalier

Chevrolet Corvette

Chevrolet Express

Chevrolet Impala

Chevrolet Malibu

Chevrolet Monte Carlo

Chevrolet S10

Chevrolet Silverado

Chevrolet Suburban

Chevrolet Tahoe

Chevrolet Tracker

Chevrolet TrailBlazer

Chevrolet Venture

GMC Envoy

GMC Safari

GMC Savana

GMC Sierra

GMC Sonoma

GMC Suburban

GMC Yukon

Oldsmobile Alero

Oldsmobile Aurora

Oldsmobile Bravada

Oldsmobile Intrigue

Oldsmobile Silhouette

Pontiac Aztek

Pontiac Bonneville

Pontiac Firebird

Pontiac Grand Am

Pontiac Grand Prix

Pontiac Montana

Pontiac Sunfire

Saturn all cars except LS

Saturn VUE

General Motors: 2003

Buick Century

Buick LeSabre

Buick Park Avenue

Buick Regal

Buick Rendezvous

Cadillac CTS

Cadillac Deville

Cadillac Escalade

Cadillac XLR Roadster

Cadillac Seville

Chevrolet Avalanche

Chevrolet Astro

Chevrolet Blazer

Chevrolet Cavalier

Chevrolet Corvette

Chevrolet Express

Chevrolet Impala

Chevrolet Kodiak

Chevrolet Malibu

Chevrolet Monte Carlo

Chevrolet S10

Chevrolet Silverado

Chevrolet SSR

Chevrolet Suburban

Chevrolet Tahoe

Chevrolet Tracker

Chevrolet TrailBlazer

Chevrolet Venture

GMC Envoy

GMC Safari

GMC Savana

GMC Sierra

GMC Sonoma

GMC Suburban

GMC Top Kick

GMC Yukon

Hummer H2

Oldsmobile Alero

Oldsmobile Aurora

Oldsmobile Bravada

Oldsmobile Intrigue

Oldsmobile Silhouette

Pontiac Aztek

Pontiac Bonneville

Pontiac Firebird

Pontiac Grand Am

Pontiac Grand Prix

Pontiac Montana

Pontiac Sunfire

Saturn all cars except LS

Saturn ION

Saturn VUE

Ford: 2001

Ford Crown Victoria

Ford Taurus

Ford Windstar

Lincoln Town Car

Mercury Grand Marquis

Mercury Sable

Ford: 2002

Ford Crown Victoria

Ford Windstar

Lincoln Town Car

Mercury Grand Marquis

Ford: 2003

Ford Crown Victoria

Ford Windstar

Lincoln Town Car

Mercury Grand Marquis

Isuzu: 2000

Isuzu Hombre

Isuzu: 2001

Isuzu Hombre

Isuzu: 2002

Isuzu Hombre

Isuzu: 2003

Isuzu Ascender
 
More on Black Boxes

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-05-15-boxes-usat_x.htm

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/edr-site/sitemap.html (Hit "Expand All to see the list)

http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/03/09/23/2334251.shtml

What they record:

http://www.seniormag.com/headlines/blackboxcars.htm

  • Vehicle speed (five seconds before impact)
  • Engine speed (five seconds before impact)
  • Brake status (five seconds before impact)
  • Throttle position (five seconds before impact)
  • State of driver's seat belt switch (On/Off)
  • Passenger's airbag (On/Off)
  • IR Warning Lamp status (On/Off)
  • Time from vehicle impact to airbag deployment
  • Ignition cycle count at event time
  • Ignition cycle count at investigation
  • Maximum velocity for near-deployment event
  • Velocity vs. time for frontal airbag deployment event
  • Time from vehicle impact to time of maximum velocity
  • Time between near-deploy and deploy event (if within five seconds)

http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/business/industries/automotive/3649628.htm

http://www.drivers.com/article/248/

and lots, lots more.
 
If I was engaged in terrorism or criminal enterprise, I would thing twice before using it - but gun owner status is hardly radical enough to draw attention these days.

Unless you are unusually (and in my profesional opinion, unreasonably) careful in the PRK, just being a gun owner can make you a criminal with alarming ease.

Shells slid into your sling that's tied to your shotgun that is otherwise unloaded and un-chambered? Congratulations! You're now a felon!

Don't think for a second that you have to be paying for OnStar for the gov't to tap it. Just like a phone.
 
That is a California problem and not an Onstar problem.

I have lived over half my life in CA and I never had a problem or serious hassle.

If you live there, it is important to know the law and be extra careful to follow it.

Thats why I now live in Texas :)
 
Every bit of the information gathered by the black box is designed to protect the manufacturer from Tort Terrorists.

Whaddya think of that. My Fourth Amendment rights are violated by corporations and Tort Terrorists. I

Didn't vote for a single one yet my civil liberties are abridged.

What's that you say? Buy a new car without the black box? Try it!
 
California gets it right some of the time

SOURCE

Law guards use of vehicle data
Carmakers installing 'black boxes' to get accident information

Michael Cabanatuan, Chronicle Staff Writer
Tuesday, September 23, 2003

A little-publicized privacy bill signed into law Monday aims to protect California motorists from a little-known device dubbed the "black box" that records data on how a vehicle was being driven just before an accident.

The legislation, the first of its kind in the nation, prevents the recorded data from being obtained by police or others without the vehicle owner's consent or a court order -- except in cases of safety research in which the owner's identity is protected.

The law, which takes effect July 1, 2004, also requires automakers to disclose the presence of the devices in the owner's manual.

"Most people don't even know these devices exist," said Kevin O'Neill, legislative director for Assemblyman Tim Leslie, R-Tahoe City, author of the bill. "That was why we did this bill."

Known as event data recorders or sensing and diagnostic modules in the auto industry, the devices record information about how a vehicle was being driven just before a crash. Among the information recorded are speed, whether -- and how hard -- the brakes are applied, the angle of the steering wheel, the position of the accelerator, direction of travel and whether or not seat belts were being used.

The devices, which record information on a continuous loop that rewrites itself every few seconds, lock the information in place only after an accident that deploys an air-bag. Data from the recorders can be downloaded only after a crash.

Automakers started using the devices as a way to collect accident information for safety purposes such as preventing the unnecessary deployment of air-bags.

General Motors -- the main user of the devices -- began installing the boxes in some cars as early as the 1970s, said O'Neill, and now installs them in every new car. Ford also installs recorders in some of its vehicles, he said, but most other automakers don't yet use them.

In recent years, O'Neill said, data from the the devices has found its way into court -- primarily to defend automakers in cases where consumers claimed a vehicle malfunctioned. In at least one case, the recorded data was used as evidence in a vehicle accident.

Recently, South Dakota police tried to get data to show whether Rep. Bill Janklow had run a stop sign before he struck and killed a motorcyclist.

"With the ability of law enforcement to get this information, and other people to get this information, we thought consumers needed protection about how (these devices) could be used," O'Neill said.

Leslie said in a written statement that the legislation was necessary because the recorders were installed in vehicles without the owners' consent. He likened use of the devices to wiretaps, and said that, to protect motorists against illegal search and seizure, a court order should be required to download data from the devices.

The law, he said in a letter urging Gov. Gray Davis to sign the bill, "will give consumers the knowledge they currently lack concerning the presence of 'black boxes' as well as empower them as to how and when the information can be retrieved and used."

E-mail Michael Cabanatuan at [email protected] .
 
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