The.45 Colt...............

[BobWright]

The .45 Colt cartridge has been around a long time, being introduced in the Colt Single Action Army in 1873.

Four you entertainment, here are some specimens of the cartridge over the years, along with some vintage .45 S&W rounds:



The cartridge on the left is from Frankford Arsenal. The M-1873 and M-1875 designations are my own origin to identify the rounds. The .45 S&W on the right has the early Frankford Arsenal H/S "R F" indication "Revolver, Frankford Arsenal." The "9 84" is the date, September of 1884.

These are .45 S&W Schofield rounds, now with "F" indication Frankford Arsenal.



These are vintage commercial cartridges, including the short cased .45 Colt made around the WW I era:



Headstamps of the above rounds. Convention at the time was to use copper primers for black powder, nickel for smokeless, and brass for semi-smokeless powder.



.45 M1909 cartridges. There were never loaded commercially. They cannot be loaded in adjacent chambers in the Colt SAA or the M1878 Double action.



Modern .45 Colt ammunition. Second from right is the full metal case round loaded by Dominion Cartridge Co. of Canada during WW II.




Just for you interest.

Bob Wright

 

[Barry the Bear]

Then the .44 special came and Messrs Smith and Wesson took Ole Colt down a peg! Just kidding , that is an interesting read Mr. Wright , tell me not that you would but will some of those old cartridges you have there still shoot ?

 

[USSR]

Please note the 3rd cartridge from the left in the 3rd and 4th photo from the top: a .45 Colt headstamp with a short case designed to fit in either the Colt or S&W .45 revolvers. Hence the term ".45 Long Colt" being specified by shooters wanting the original long case loading of the round.

Don

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Hope you don't mind me taking the liberty of posting a photo of some Benet primed rounds like the ones in the first photo. This photo should explain the 'wrinkle' at the bottom of the rounds.

Benet priming was a very early style of centerfire priming, but it looked a lot like a rimfire. There was no visible exterior priming. The priming was on the interior of the cartridge. The two crimps on the side of the base of the cartridge held an anvil plate against the bottom of the case. The priming compound was sandwiched between the anvil plate and the bottom of the case. The firing pin deformed the base of the cartridge crushing the priming compound against the anvil plate and ignited it. The flash from the priming material was communicated to the main powder charge through a couple of holes in the anvil plate. Benet primed cases were made of copper, not brass, and the rim was of folded construction, not cut on a lathe. Benet primed rounds could only be fired once there was no way to reprime them. The very first 45 Colt cartridges were made at Frankford Armory and were Benet primed.





Here is a box of Benet primed 45 Colt cartridges. A modern round is on the far right. Notice how tiny the rims are on these early 45 Colt cartridges. One reason that rifles were never chambered for 45 Colt until very recently.



Benet priming is named for General Stephen Vincent Benet (pronounced Benay). Benet held several posts in the Ordinance Departmen of the Army, becoming chief of the department in 1874.

He was the grandfather of the poet of the same name.

 

[Twiki357]

Very interesting. Thanks for posting.

Driftwood
What is the cartridge on the right? An empty case, a blank or maybe snake shot?

 

[Jim Watson]

Bob,

Rim diameters of those various cartridges would be interesting.
Maybe trial fit in a SAA cylinder.

I am wondering if the original .45 S&W's larger rim for simultaneous extraction had to be reduced to fit the Colt cylinder.
I have read it both ways.

 

[Jim K]

As far as I can determine, there was never, at least in Army issue, such a thing as a ".45 S&W" cartridge to be used only in the Schofield. The Army issued the .45 Colt ("long Colt") for about two years, then switched to a short .45 cartridge that could be used in both the Colt and the S&W revolvers, and that was the issue cartridge not only for the SAA, but also for the double action Model 1878 which was purchased for issue in the Philippines. So, contrary to what has been written, the Army never used the .45 Colt cartridge in the Indian Wars after about 1874.

The reason for the small rim of both cartridges was that when the army asked for a .45 revolver, Colt wanted to modify its .44 1860 Army tooling as little as possible so they tried to keep the cylinder small. (Of course, the size of the rim meant nothing for a rod ejector revolver.)

But when the Model 1909 was adopted, the Army found that the small rim of its revolver cartridges (they still had a lot of the short .45 combination rounds) jumped the extractor; so they set up to make their own Model 1909 cartridge, which was basically the .45 Colt with a larger diameter rim.

Jim

 

[BobWright]

I have tried all of these in my Colts and all the S&W rounds chamber equally well. Only the M1909 doesn't work.

As to the use of inside priming for Frankford Arsenal's cartridge, the Army did not feel the outside primed ammunition was waterproof enough. However, problems were encountered with inside primed ammunition when the cup came loose and lodged in the barrel.

Bob Wright

 

[BobWright]

Barry the Bear:

Then the .44 special came and Messrs Smith and Wesson took Ole Colt down a peg! Just kidding , that is an interesting read Mr. Wright , tell me not that you would but will some of those old cartridges you have there still shoot ?

I have fired a couple of old UMC .45 Colt cartridges. Firing was iffy~ some did, some didn't.

I broke down a couple and found that the mercury had deteriorated the priming compound, the anvil, and/or the powder charges.

As to the .44 Special, it is still trying to unseat the old .45 Colt.

Bob Wright

 

[Jim K]

The really weird thing about the .44 Special is that it was mostly S&W hype, though the longer case supposedly handled the early smokeless powders better.

But the .44 Special was introduced with exactly the same ballistics as the .44 Russian and the factory load never has been changed. Experimenters like Keith recognized that and determined to make use of all that wasted space in the case. We all know "the rest of the story."

Jim

 

[Jim Watson]

As far as I can determine, there was never, at least in Army issue, such a thing as a ".45 S&W" cartridge to be used only in the Schofield.

I don't know where they got it, but CotW charts a .45 S&W with .522" rim along with the .45 Gov't and .45 Colt with .502" rims.

 

[Coyote3855]

Never to old to learn. Benet priming was news to me. Thanks for the lesson about one of my favorite cartridges. Two Ruger Vaqueros, a USFA Single Action, Uberti 1866, Marlin 94. Fed with a Dillon 550.

 

[Barry the Bear]

Barry the Bear:

I have fired a couple of old UMC .45 Colt cartridges. Firing was iffy~ some did, some didn't.

I broke down a couple and found that the mercury had deteriorated the priming compound, the anvil, and/or the powder charges.

As to the .44 Special, it is still trying to unseat the old .45 Colt.

Bob Wright

I have alot of respect for the .45 colt, but just as Keith ,Skelton, and Taffin before me did Ill have to stay with the .44 .

 

[Jim K]

"I don't know where they got it, but CotW charts a .45 S&W with .522" rim along with the .45 Gov't and .45 Colt with .502" rims."

I think that was the ".45 Revolver Ball Model of 1882", the first .45 caliber Frankford revolver cartridge with a solid head (non-Benet) case. It is shown in HWS as having a rim diameter of .524". I don't know the reason for the increase in rim diameter, but I have specimens that measure .522" rim diameter and they do fit in the cylinder of an SAA. (Model 1909 cartridges run .5365-.5370" and 6 do not.) There is no reason to believe that the Model 1882 nomenclature indicated anything but the case head change; there was no change in issue or change to the revolvers.

I have samples of the Benet primed .45 Government (or whatever) that run .513-.515" rim diameter, so apparently the actual rim size was not a big deal as long as six would fit in the SAA cylinder. (No SAAMI at that time!)

IMHO, there are really only three cartridges involved - .45 Colt ("Long Colt"), .45 Government (aka .45 Schofield, .45 C Gov't, .45 S&W, .45 Short Colt), and .45 Model 1909. Reports of others are due to variations in manufacturing or the use of erroneous headstamps by ammo companies. (Some .45 Gov't cartridges have the h/s of ".45 Colt".)

There is one more round to throw into the confusion bucket, the .45 Model of 1906, a FMJ round which was developed for use in testing revolvers submitted for possible adoption in that year; adoption of the Model 1909 revolver forestalled further testing and the Model 1906 cartridge was a dead end. FA made 10,000; Remington made 5000 for S&W for testing, but none were issued and no revolver was ever made for that round, though it could have been fired in the Model 1909.

Jim

 

[Hanshi]

Thanks for the posts; this has been very informative.

 

[BobWright]

James K:

IMHO, there are really only three cartridges involved - .45 Colt ("Long Colt"), .45 Government (aka .45 Schofield, .45 C Gov't, .45 S&W, .45 Short Colt), and .45 Model 1909. Reports of others are due to variations in manufacturing or the use of erroneous headstamps by ammo companies. (Some .45 Gov't cartridges have the h/s of ".45 Colt".)

As a matter of interest, I've never encountered a round identified as ".45 Short Colt" nor ".45 Government." Same for ".45 Schofield" as period ammunition. I do believe some modern cowboy action stuff is designated as .45 Schofield. All the short cased .45 Colt I've encountered were indeed .45 Colt and not the .45 Colt Gov't. rounds I've seen.

As to referring to the .45 Long Colt to differentiate between the .45 Colt and the .45 S&W, be aware that is likely an affectation as the shorter rounds were discontinued around 1934 or so.

Bob Wright

 

[RugerOldArmy]

Awesome thread. I learned something new. Thanks BobWright, Driftwood.

 

[Leanwolf]

Thank you Bob Wright and Driftwood Johnson for the well written information and pictures of the early .45 Colt and .45 S&W cartridges.

L.W.

 

[Clippers]

Thanks for posting some great info.

 

[Jim K]

Hi, Bob,

Suydam shows a photograph of a Peters cartridge headstamped ".45 C Gov't", the "C" apparently standing for "Colt". Also pictured are cartridges headstamped ".45 S&W" and ".45 Colt" (by REM-UMC - the same headstamp bunter they used for .45 Colt). Suydam's title for the section is ".45 SMITH & WESSON SCHOFIELD/.45 COLT GOVERNMENT."

I have also seen the cartridge referred to as the .45 Army, though I have seen no headstamps or box markings with that nomenclature. The Army called it the .45 Pistol Ball up to 27 November 1882, when the decision was made to refer to handguns in the military service as "revolvers", at which time the gun and cartridge nomenclature was changed. The Army had no confusion, since only one .45 handgun cartridge was issued in that period.

It is unclear (to me) when the commercial cartridges were made. Up to the time the Schofields were sold off, there would have been almost no market for those cartridges (very few Schofields were made for the commercial market); obviously, they would fit the Colt revolvers, but it seems unlikely that people, being what people are, would buy short cartridges for guns that would take long ones.

Jim

 

[Phdui76]

Great thread. Thanks for the information.

 

[jamesinalaska]

Thank You

Thank You Bob Wright and Driftwood Johnson. Very good thread, never get to read information like this in the gun magazines.

 

[Malamute]

Excellent posts gentllemen.

Could any of the fellows with older 45 Colt cases measure the wall thickness and compare it to more modern 45 Colt cases? When I was first shooting 45's in the 80's, some of the cases seemed thinner walled, and older cases in particular did. When loading them up to higher levels become popular, it seems the factories began to make the case walls thicker. I'm curious if measurements bear out my recollections.

How would early 1900's commercial cases, pre-WWII cases, and 1950's cases compare in wall thickness with todays cases?

 

[USSR]

When I was first shooting 45's in the 80's, some of the cases seemed thinner walled, and older cases in particular did.

The thinner walled cases would have been older balloon-head constructed cases, which were the way they were made in the pre-WW2 era. After the war, the .45 Colt was made using solid-head construction and the brass is fully as strong as any other similarly constructed case.

Don

 

[berettaprofessor]

Thanks for posting, Bob. Fascinating read.