The 6.8 SPC could have been a winner if...

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+1 -- the extreme ranges the Taliban are using these days are not making for effective ambushes, but that's the only range where they have a chance to survive the contact. They did the same thing with the Soviets -- most muj ambushes were done at such long range Soviet armor/mech units often didn't e even know they'd been ambushed and rolled right through "kill zones" without response. We're hitting them with the right mix of equipment and such, and the usual internet navel gazing about calibers and weapons is as off base as such things usually are.
 
The average infantryman doesn't take shots beyond 3 or 400m because he is not confident in his maximum effective range and his ability to hit the target at distance. That is because he is not taught the fundamentals of rifle marksmanship and distance shooting.

It takes a bunch of time and specialized training to teach people to shoot effectively past BSZ range? That's news to me. We do a pretty good job of teaching people to shoot the Rifleman's Quarter Mile in just one weekend at Appleseed, and an even better job teaching it at our week-long Rifleman Boot Camps. If we can turn a bunch of civvies into Rifleman in one week, the military ought to be able to as well. Heck, we've even done it for the military... Appleseed has trained several Army units, and all of them went away with a vastly increased maximum effective range and confidence in their ability to hit the target... not with an expensive new rifle or ammunition or anything... just the proper fundamentals of rifle marksmanship. That and a GI web sling.

That is probably the easiest single thing we could do to improve effectiveness at distance... teach proper rifle marksmanship. Of course it would be better if we had a more effective caliber... I like the idea of a 6.5-7mm round out of a .308-sized case or so. Basically like the .276 Pedersen that we almost switched to back in the 1920s (what the M-1 was originally designed for).

Maybe a round like that out of a bullpup would be the way to go. That way it would be compact and light enough for close quarters fighting, but could have a long enough barrel to work for long range work. Something along the lines of the Kel Tec RFB would be nice, but with a 22" barrel or so. Carbine-like dimensions for close quarters work, but with a round that is flatter shooting and with a longer max effective range than the 7.62 NATO.
 
The problem with engagements past 3-400 meters isn't that troops lack confidence in their abilities, it's that on a two way range with the other guy in camouflage or a drab colored man dress it's a trick to even detect the other guy. Then it's another trick to positively ID him as hostile, and a third trick to get your shot lined up and take it. The bad has to do one trick -- get back behind cover before you shoot him.

That's why there just isn't any support for the notion that long range marksmanship ever paid big dividends after people started dressing in various shades of mud colored clothing and stopped marching towards the enemy in open order trying to stop bullets. It didn't work well by late WW1 and hasn't started working better.

Even trained snipers, with much better optics, make their money out past 400 meters either striking from ambush at static bad guys or correcting off their first round misses. Both the post-9/11 shots that edged out Hathcock's record from Vietnam featured misses before hits, for instance.
 
The idea of smallarms engagements beyond 300 yards is a rifle range mentality that has nothing to do with the realities of modern infantry combat. As already noted, hit probability at 500 yards drop to nil, and 90% of all small arms fire takes place at 300 yards or less. This has little or nothing to do with marksmanship, but rather the ability to see the target and intervening terrain. Unlike wars in the 19th and early 20th century, modern fighters are taught the use of cover and concealment, the use of camouflage and fire and maneuver. Even the most experience, highly trained shooter cannot hit a target he cannot see.

Volume of fire has value not just for fixing an enemy's position, but also to make return fire less effective even at the cost of ammunition. All those 'wasted' round have led to a reduction in friendly casualties. Better to trade bullets for wounded or dead soldiers, IMO.

BTW, the average range of engagement in the ETO in WWII, where the 30-06 was the standard round, was 75 yards. Marines in Iraq are averaging 50 yards.

Longer ranges are really the realm of intermediate weapon like mortars and other area effect weapons. Point weapon like rifles are to easy to render ineffective by cover and distance.

This thread may be of interest: http://www.thehighroad.us/showthread.php?t=327113

The 6.8, like every other round developed as an answer to the 5.56, is a compromise limited by what can fit in an M16 and be controllable under full auto fire. The latter is something frequently missed by civilian shooters who've never fired a select fire rifle and don't appreciate how small changes in recoil are amplified when more than one round goes down range per pull of the trigger.

The goal was better lethality at combat ranges. There is a lot of room to argue that adoption of the M855 over the M193 reduced effectiveness of the M16 platform. It seems to make little sense when one considered that the M855 was adopted in part because it offered better long range potential than the M193, while the Army's own studies indicated that small arms aren't effective at longer range and that the effectiveness of small caliber projectiles require high velocities to be effective.

In particular, the 5.56 has been particularly effective due to it tendency to fragment, and this phenomenon requires a velocity of around 2800 fps IIRC. Adopting of the M855 reduced initial velocity of the 5.56 by about 300 fps, reducing the fragmentation range by a good measure in return for longer effective range that wasn't needed.

There is a valid argument for a round optimized for very short barrels which rob the 5.56 of its necessary velocity. But there is an equally valid argument for staying with rifles and preserving carbine length weapon for where they are really necessary.
 
The Army doesn't depend on one weapon

in the hands of a soldier in the squad. From 25m to 25 miles, it has a series of escalating choices and resources with which to engage the enemy.

The major mistake in discussing what the Army should issue as a weapon to the soldier is thinking that will be the only one on the battlefield, then complaining the enemy gets to use old Enfields in .303, or Russian .50 calibers. It shows a complete lack of familiarity with what the unit may have in organic firepower.

My old Reserve unit is currently deployed in Afghanistan, once again doing convoy security and area control. If they are equipped like the MTOE says, then they have individual 5.56 and 9MM weapons, an MG on the HMMV, MK17s, etc. The average MP squad actually has more firepower than the Infantry. Like as not there will be BN designated assets along for the ride, including a SDM with an M14, and a .50 up on a truck. We haven't even mentioned artillery or air cover when needed.

All that for the primary threat, which is an IED on the road. The long range shooter in the hills is way up there because they don't dare get any closer. They make points if they can harass a convoy, we only count dead bodies, the contest is pretty unequal and they know it.

Please don't bring a high precision long range school of thought into what is basically a response to chaos. As was said, when someone is shooting back and doing their best to remain covered and concealed, the use of a carbine or rifle gets a lot harder. Try having your buddies hiding the targets behind bushes, gaps in a berm, or back in a hut. Find those targets and accurately shoot them. Better yet, walk a mile between targets. Sniper matches are held like that.

I'll tell you up front you can't shoot a target you can't see. It's why we have weapons that cover a general area, like a machine gun or automatic grenade launcher. Put 8 rounds or a grenade in that target, you get a lot more result than firing the 5.56, regardless of optics.

Real combat stacks the cards against the easy shot. Concepts of ballistics outside of 500m don't apply to individual weapons, because the percentage of shots dwindles to zero. It's not like on a sunny Saturday afternoon, it's Thursday morning at O'dark thirty, and you don't get any weekends off.

If you prefer a particular bullet size and shape for the statistics it has on paper, and how they might optimize your shooting situation, go right ahead and use it. However, please don't think that combat use of a firearm has any connection to it at all - unless you are shooting live targets hiding in the environment.

That is why so many choose the 6.8SPCII. It's NOT a paper punching caliber, complaining about it is exactly what is wrong. The SF and AMU never intended it for lazy afternoons at the range.
 
I'll tell you up front you can't shoot a target you can't see. It's why we have weapons that cover a general area, like a machine gun or automatic grenade launcher. Put 8 rounds or a grenade in that target, you get a lot more result than firing the 5.56, regardless of optics.

Which is exactly why the Army is looking at the smart grenade launcher (XM-25) as the eventual replacement for the rifle, first as a specialist weapon, but if cost and weight allow, it may become the next generation of infantry weapon.
 
Adopting of the M855 reduced initial velocity of the 5.56 by about 300 fps, reducing the fragmentation range by a good measure in return for longer effective range that wasn't needed.
I agree, and while my opinion isn't particularly valid (no combat experience), I think it was taking a step backwards. OTOH the same cannot be said for the new 77gr. OTM, and the new "SOST" round looks promising as well.

Either way, I don't believe the decision to move from the 5.56NATO to something larger (or smaller for that matter) will be anything made with haste...nor should it.

:)
 
There is really only one good reason for moving up caliber and that is logistics. A correctly designed intermediate round could theoretically replace both the 7.62x51 and the 5.56x45 with a single round. Such a round would be a compromise as well, with more recoil than the 5.56x45 and less hitting power than the 7.62x51 at shorter ranges. High BC bullets in 6.5 and 7mm can best the current M80 ball at moderate to long range.

That being said, the current system works so there's not much impetus for something else.
 
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