The 9mm vs. .45 ACP of Shotgun threads

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Black Majik

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Yes, it's going to be another Benelli vs. Beretta thread. Sorry guys, but this time I need some help. I'm looking for a semi-auto shotgun, and I've read all the pros and cons of each manufacturer. I'm creating this thread to make it a little more personalized for me.

The shotgun is mainly going to be for clays (mainly trap). I don't hunt. All the threads I've read about Beretta vs. Benelli says that the Beretta is more of a clay gun while the Benelli is more of a field/hunting gun. I know the Beretta is gas-operated while the Benelli is inertia operated. Thus, the Beretta has lower recoil.

For my criteria, however... I want a light gun, and a gun of little recoil. By the third round, I'm usually getting tired and my score drops a little. Right now I'm shooting a 870 Wingmaster 12 gauge. It's primarily the weight of the gun that slows me down by the end of the day. Secondly, semi-autos are known to recoil less than pump guns.

I'm looking for:

1) Lightweight
2) low recoil
3) fiber optic sight

Both are known to be reliable so that's a moot point.

The two models I looked at were the Beretta 391 Teknys vs. Benelli's Montefeltro Silver. And, after holding both, I'm completely torn. The Beretta has be reputed to have the lightest recoil, while the Benelli is lighter. So theres where I'm torn. Both feel lighter than my 870. While comparing these two guns, there were pros and cons between the two guns. Comparing fiber optic sights, I liked the Berettas larger and longer fiber optic compared to Benelli's skinnier and shorter FO. The Benelli definitely felt much better though. I liked the thinner forearm and the stock seemed to be a little shorter which fit me nicer. Pointability was very similar, with the Benelli edging the lead. Comparing both back to back however, neither was the clear winner.

Beretta 391 Pros:

- gas operated for less recoil
- Better fiber optic sights
- Extended choke tubes

Beretta 391 cons
- Heavier
- Not as smooth action as the Benelli
-Plastic triggerguard
- Fatter forearm

Benelli Montefeltro Pros

- Lighter than 391
- Gun felt better to me
- Looks nicer
- Smoother action
- Feels better constructed.

Benelli Montefeltro Cons

- More recoil
- Skinny FO sights are kind of a joke. The middle bead covers up the front FO sight
- Plastic triggerguard


I don't need the fancier silver receiver. But the Beretta's Teckny's has the FO sight while the regular Urika doesn't. For this gun, I want to try a FO sight. I've shot using a green fiber optic sight on my dad's 686, and I liked it a lot.

There was one thing I was pretty disappointed with on both guns, and that was the plastic triggerguard. It just detracts away from the gun so much. Especially with the silver receivers I looked at, the black plastic triggerguard looked like a pimple on the prom queen.

So here I am, liking both. Beretta has the low recoil of the gas operating system going for it. Benelli is noticeably lighter and nicer IMO.

I'm completely lost on which to go for. Any advise with the criteria given?

Thanks :)
 
Neither. They're hell to get parts for.

But, if you must, close your eyes and pick the less expensive one since they're the same gun. (they are very similar being made by the same company.)
 
A Beretta and a Benelli are as different as dogs and cats. Internally and externally. Aside from the new Govt' autoloader, Benelli's are recoil operated- so are Beretta Pintails/Vitorias (ES100) and the F series- FP1200/1201 . Beretta 390's and 391's are gas operated, they don't have a Benelli rotating/locking bolt, and are superior shotguns:neener: (see my sign in). Both are excellent firearms and parts are a breeze to get- Rich Cole and Midwest Gunworks stock about anything you might think seems worn. That said, personally I never flinch when I see a 301-302-303 for sale; it is gonna' belong to me as fast as I can get the cash out. I had an SBE, wasn't good for my goose hunting- I got a gold 10, but I currently own 3 ES100 models and the bedside shotgun is a FP1201. I DO NOT like the recoil operated guns for clays- O/U's work better for me:evil: , but I would look for a 303 and set it up the way you want it. BTW, I never have HAD to replace any part on a Beretta, but I have replaced a few recoil springs that were used way too much when they were new.:p
 
I've posted a fair amount about the 391 and the Montefeltro, since I own both and have shot both extensively. Both are very good guns, and either would serve you well for many, many years.

First, I'd say that whatever sight the gun comes with isn't very important, since replacements are readily avaialble and aren't very expensive. If you can operate a pair of needle-nosed pliers and a screwdriver, you can change one out in a matter of a couple minutes.

Second, either gun can have minor changes to fit made quite easily. They come with a variety of shims which can slightly alter the drop and cast. Also, at least the Beretta will come with two recoil pads, one slightly thicker than the other. You can put the slimmer one on and decrease the LOP by about 1/4". My Benelli didn't have the extra pad, but it's several years old.

Like I said, either gun is good. My preference for a clays gun is for the gas-system of the Beretta, but if you're leaning more towards the Benelli, it's a fine gun too.
 
Two things jumped out in the original post.

The shotgun is mainly going to be for clays (mainly trap).
Click to expand...
The Beretta 391 is THE standard by which all target semi-autos are measured. It also comes in a dedicated trap model with various stock options.

I want a light gun, and a gun of little recoil.
Click to expand...
You can't have both unfortunately. A lighter gun will kick more. But what will kick less is a gas-operated gun and one that can shoot lighter shells more reliably and that is the Beretta 391. It is more versatile when it comes to shell selection.

I own a 391 that is a back-up gun to my o/u and my waterfowl gun. The Benellis impress me as good solid hunting guns but not quite in the same league for target shooting.
 
When I go to the sporting clays range I see lot of guys shooting 391's (most of whom used to shoot O/U's). I don't think I've ever seen a Benelli. I have nothing against the Benelli, but the 391 is the autoloader of choice among most clay shooters.

I switched to a 391 last spring. I've only shot one round with my O/U since then. 391 Urika = fun!
 
Check out Franchi

You'll never get a deal like the one I got, and I don't know about their newer line, but here's my story.

I wanted a light AL for my 16yr old son. I had been dropping in pawn shops from time to time just to see what prices were like. One day I dropped into a shop that had sprung up in a rough part of the suburbs. The guy had many display cases of hand guns, and nary a long rifle or shot gun to be seen. But I started a casual conversation asking how long his shop had been in operation. Oh, he said, I just got my license a couple weeks ago. Hmm I said, actually I am looking for a shotgun. Well says he.. I did take in some sort of thing, I think its a French made something or other "French E" he says. He goes in back and brings out a beautiful 12 gauge autoloader saying he took it in cuz the owner said it didn't work all that well. How much? He say you can have it for 50 bucks. Works for me....


Took it home and on disassembly found gobs and gobs of oil dripping off the internals. I wiped all this off and after a few queries found that too much oil causes the autoload feature to slow to the point of not working.

I've had it to our Clay range on numerous occasions and must say it is as easy if not easier than my O/U Baretta. It is very light. The autoload operation totally eats up the recoil. So for what its worth I would highly recommend you seek one out even if you just visit their web page.

KKKKFL
 
11-87

Thought I'd throw in another opinion, just to confuse things. I bought a Remington 11-87 nickel plated sporting clays model, 30" ported barrel with extended chokes. So far, despite the chatter about the 11-87 reliability, it's operated flawlessly with several types of factory ammo and some 7/8 oz. reloads. I shot my 870TB after shooting the semi, and the increase in recoil on the pump was very evident to me. And the SC 11-87 is a real nice looking gun. If you don't need the fancy nickel, the blued models can be had also.

I like the feel of the Remington more than the Beretta. I rented the Urika model at my local club, and I didn't much like the skinny forearm, but that's just me. I also didn't like the Beretta prices when I started shopping.

Danny
 
You may also want to try out the Benelli Supersport. I have no idea on price, but it is the one recoil-operated autoloader I've seen used with some frequency at registered NSCA events.
 
If its goiong to ne mainly for trap, then go with the beretta. Benelli doesnt sell a trap gun. With that being said, I shot trap with my SBE all the time.

But for hunting and a do it all gun, nothing beats a Benelli. IMO, Its the best semi money can buy bar none!

And I remember some guy quoted, "both are hell to find parts for". This doesnt matter with Benelli's interia system. They just dont break! Very clean gun as well, and very easy to clean too, which is opposite of the gas system. They can survive really high round counts, which is eviedent in the Argentine dove hunts. IMO, for a field gun Berretta doesnt hold a candle to Benelli
 
Shotguns that fit better shoot better.
Benelli's have black anodized aluminum trigger guards.
Benelli's can use a mercury recoil reducer.
Benelli's are smooth and recoil is subjective.
Get replacement sights. I took the mid bead off and use a larger tru-glo.

I chose Benelli—actually two.
Either are good.
 
Ever notice how Beretta owners absolutely love Berettas and Benelli owners only love thier Benellis?
Toss a coin or go with your gut instinct- you'll be happy either way.
I shoot a 390. It's great, no problems ever.
My palm reader says there is a 20g Beretta 3901 in my future.
 
Why do you get tired after two rounds of trap, with a gun that weighs a pound less than most trap guns?

Do you use a toe tab or other kind of rest between shots? That can be a godsend, especially when you're shooting with a bunch of doofuses that fumble around for a minute or two every time it's their turn.

Do you have injuries or something? I shoot with guys who are in their 90s and they don't have this problem with heavier guns than a Wingmaster. Is there some other bit of information we need to know? (This bit of information is important: if you have a torn rotator cuff or something, don't get the Benelli!)

Montefeltros are good looking guns, but that's about all they have going for them, at the range. I'm betting you will deeply regret buying a Montefeltro for trap. They're good for carry-lots, shoot-little rough country upland hunting, where you care more about carry weight and reliability when dirty than recoil, though I think you still lose something when you consider your second or third shot, with a gun that bucks when you shoot it (Berettas, Remingtons, et al. stay on target when you fire a shot, making followups easier, IMO).

With a walnut stock and low weight, combined with Benelli's kick-magnifying action, the Montefeltro is probably the hardest-kicking repeater you can buy. Autoloaders do not necessarily recoil less. Certain ones do, because of their design (Remington and Beretta gas guns, for example). Montefeltros simply lack the design features that make for a good range gun, except that they're pretty, in the silver engraved version. That's why you seldom see them at the range, except for the week before a bird season opens, when guys are practicing with them.

If I were you, I'd consider taking a deep breath, relaxing, and waiting a bit before buying a gun.

What you are describing doesn't quite make sense to me. My trap gun weighs close to 9 lb. I keep it resting on a toe tab or rubber rest on the ground, when it's not my turn. I would get tired if I held it up for a few hours, but I don't, and neither does anyone else with trap experience. Heavier, long guns work really well for trap, though, even for some small people, because they swing smoothly.

Many trap shooters abhor FO sights. Some guys even remove their front beads, because they are a distraction that can shift your eyes' focus at the wrong time. Some trap shooters do use and really like FO's, but a great many do not.

Is there any way you can borrow a gun and try it before you drop a grand on one?

Do you have a standard field Wingmaster, or a Classic Trap or other, older trap version?

If you really want a light, low-recoil shotgun, check out one of these (not a trap gun, but it's very light and has REALLY low felt recoil, llike none at all -- I shot one and I wanted one, right on the spot). http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_105CTi.asp They also eject down in front of you, so they won't anger the other trap shooters in your squad.:)

Two problems:

1. They're a totally new design, so God only knows if they're as reliable, yet.
2. They're VERY hard to find. The one I shot was at a factory demo. I've never seen one in a store. This exacerbates #1, since we'll only know the answer when there are some of them out, in regular use.
 
Thanks guys for the suggestions. Armed Bear, you do bring up some good points. And no shoulder injuries to report.

Maybe I was exaggerating a little bit. Or looking for reasons for a new autoloader. The weight doesn't bother me; it's moreso the recoil, since I do get sore towards the end. But if I'm looking into something else to shoot, I was hoping to get both benefits of reduced weight and lighter recoil. That's mainly why I looked into the semi-auto shotguns.

I know what I'm looking for seems like a "have you cake and eat it too" in terms of a light weight gun and low recoil. Since I know heavier guns will soak up recoil more than light guns, and the type of action plays little part.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy right now with my 870. But I would like to try something different. I do consider myself more of a novice when it comes to shooting clay, as well my friends that come with me. So when we're on the range, it does take us some time to complete a round of trap. I do ok, probably mid 80s / 100 average. Certainly not nearly as well as most of you here. Admittedly, I don't get to the clay range as often as I shoot pistols or rifles. But I certainly do enjoy the sport. As well as I understand that performance is all shooter than the type of equipment/gun used.

Thanks again for the insight. It has been very helpful.
 
Yes. Currently my two favorite shotties are a Beretta 1200 (inertia driven) and a Franchi AL48 (setup correctly). Even though both are very lightweight, felt recoil, (at least to my 220# 6'1" frame) is negligible. My Ithaca 37 kicks far worse than both.

Inertia driven guns do not make felt recoil worse. If anything, in my experience, it's equal to a gas gun.
 
Since I know heavier guns will soak up recoil more than light guns, and the type of action plays little part.
Click to expand...

This is not true.

A gas-operated semiauto can soak up an AMAZING amount of recoil.

I have an 870 and an 1100, both 12 Gauge, both 28". They're very similar guns in every way, except that the 1100 pumps for you. The 1100 has no recoil pad, just a hard buttplace, and it's no problem to put 100 rounds through it. Swing it while firing a few round, and it doesn't move noticeably out of the plane of motion while you're firing.

So what's the downside? Gas guns get dirty. You've got to clean them religiously. They're more fickle in really harsh weather. Remingtons have rubber O-ring seals in the piston system, and they harden and crack -- they can be replaced easily, but Murphy is a harsh master. Newer models (391, for example) lack weak points like the O-rings, and they are more weather-tolerant. However, they still get dirty, and Berettas in particular are a bit of a pain to clean.

Why are Benellis so popular among hunters? Like pump guns, they have no ports in the barrels. They don't have pistons to gum up, operating rods that need oil, O-rings to blow, or complex mechanisms to clean. They stay clean, and they work well dirty, wet and icy. They're popular among high-volume hunters in South America, where dove shooting might mean hundreds of birds in a single day. By the end of a day like that, most gas guns would need cleaning desparately or they'd stop functioning reliably.

Remington used to make an 870 for trap, called the 870 Competition. It's got a gas port and a weight that moves in the gun, not to reload the chamber, just to absorb the recoil. It has nearly NO felt recoil, since the moving weight in the tube sucks it all up. No one who has ever shot one -- and I have -- will ever again question the recoil-absorbing qualities of a gas-operated autoloader.

What's the downside of the Benelli, then? It doesn't do anything to absorb recoil vs. a pump gun, and it "bounces" a bit on top of that. The SBE II uses a few neat devices to absorb the recoil (mercury recoil reducer and shock-absorbing buttstock), and it is indeed no problem to shoot. The Montefeltro, however, is designed to be lighter and quicker, so it doesn't have this stuff. That's not a problem for hunting. I'd use one in a heartbeat. The new trigger guard is a lot better looking, too, IMO.

But you're talking about trap. Trap, for various reasons, seems to pound the shoulder a lot, even with relatively light loads. Personally, I like the Limbsaver recoil pad; that's what I have on my trap gun. Remington also sells it, branded as the R3; you should be able to get one that fits the Wingmaster without modification. I'd get that, before anything else, and keep looking around for the right autoloader, if that's what you want.:)
 
One more vote here for the Benelli Supersport.
I have one and I use it mainly for trap.

It has Carbon fiber stocks with the Confortech system and 30" ported barrel with the extended CrioChoke.
And it has Fiber Optics sights, too.

It's lighter than the Berettas, and the kick is somehow different from the gas operated shotguns. Maybe a little more, but nothing significant at the end of the day.

It cycles perfectly with 24grams (7/8oz) that I use on skeet, too.

This gun is a winner !!!

By the way, for skeet and olimpic trap my gun is an O/U Beretta S682.

But you can''t go wrong with either one of those.

Regards,

Andre Tiba - Brazil
 
Montefeltros are good looking guns, but that's about all they have going for them, at the range. I'm betting you will deeply regret buying a Montefeltro for trap. They're good for carry-lots, shoot-little rough country upland hunting, where you care more about carry weight and reliability when dirty than recoil, though I think you still lose something when you consider your second or third shot, with a gun that bucks when you shoot it (Berettas, Remingtons, et al. stay on target when you fire a shot, making followups easier, IMO).
Click to expand...

AB - I've got to call BS on this one. I used a Benelli Montefeltro for over a year of clay target shooting, back when I primarily shot trap. I also used it for sporting clays and some hunting. They do not "buck when you shoot it"... at least not enough to be a problem getting back on target. In fact, when I stopped using the Montefeltro regularly, my wife started using it to good effect. As I've stated before, she's 5'3" 110 lbs, and she didn't find the recoil to be a problem.

The Benelli action feels different than a gas-operated gun. Gas guns tend to give a single smooth shove. The Benelli is more of a "double hit". It's more abrupt, but after 50 or 100 shells, I don't even notice that anymore. Furthermore, my Montefeltro will cycle reliably with loads as light at 7/8oz at 1200fps (disclaimer: It was shot for at least a couple thousand shells with 1 1/8 oz light target loads. A brand new gun may have some issues cycling lighter ammo.)

Like I've said, I prefer the Beretta 391 for clays. However, the Benelli Montefeltro is far from a horrible range gun.

And as far as I'm picking nits...

Gas guns get dirty. You've got to clean them religiously.
Click to expand...

I went through a period when I most certainly did not clean my 391 religiously (unless by religiously, you are talking about the Christmas and Easter crowd ;) ). At times I ran it dry, other I ran the gas piston wet with FP-10. It just kept working. On a number of occasions I went well over 1000 shells without doing anything to it.

IMO, you are bringing up some good valid points, but are tending slightly towards hyperbole.

The one point that you mention that I think bears repeating is that it's a good idea to wait a bit and see if it's possible to shoot the different guns up for consideration. This is sage advice anytime you're considering a different platform.
 
I'm sorry. I didn't mean them as hyperbole as much as contextual points.

Here's a guy whose Wingmaster recoils enough to bring down his score after a few rounds. That's not me, and it's not kentucky_smith, but it is the guy who asked. (Why someone at 6'1" and 220 would find a 20 Gauge Special Field to be too heavy is left as an exercise; it is, however, true that every shooter has different priorities.)

I don't think a Montefeltro will improve on the problem specified. A 391, or another common gas gun, will. So would another Benelli, with "Carbon fiber stocks with the Confortech system and 30" ported barrel" as described above.

On the other hand, so will a Limbsaver/R3, for $30.
 
AB - Two recurring themes show up in fixing recoil-related problems. The first is shooting the lightest load you can for the task. IMO, an ounce of lead travelling at 1200fps will break anything that needs breaking every bit as well as 1 1/8 oz at 1300fps, except the former will be a lot more pleasant to shoot.

The second is gun fit. Towards that end, any new gun that I was planning on shooting a lot would immediately go to a gunsmith to have the stock cut for the appropriate LOP (and pitch) and have a premium recoil pad installed (Decelerator, Kick-Eez or Limbsaver... probably Kick-Eez).

Frankly, unless there is some medical reason, a well-fitting gun with a premium recoil pad should not deliver unduly harsh recoil for anyone over 100lbs, provided that they are shooting lighter shells... regardless of action type.

Some shooters, my wife included, value a lighter gun despite the increased recoil. For her, being able to physically handle the gun during a 100 sporting targets is just as important as keeping the recoil manageable. It's all a balancing act. All of her guns are what I'd consider lightweight, but she's OK with the recoil because they fit.

Now, if the original poster were a close friend, I'd probably lean pretty hard on trying to get him to get the Beretta. However, if he wound up with the Benelli, that wouldn't be bad. The most important thing is fit and "feel". Either one could work fine.

I'd still look at the Benelli Super-Sport though. :)
 
I went through a period when I most certainly did not clean my 391 religiously (unless by religiously, you are talking about the Christmas and Easter crowd ). At times I ran it dry, other I ran the gas piston wet with FP-10. It just kept working. On a number of occasions I went well over 1000 shells without doing anything to it.
Click to expand...
Mine will easily go 1000 rounds between cleaning. When I first got mine I shot it a bit, cleaned it and then didn't do anything to it until it failed to feed once. That was around 1,800 round point. I cleaned it, lubed it and shot it (mostly 1 ounce loads) until it I had a couple of FTF at about 1,500 hundred rounds. I squirted some CLP into the gun and it carried on for another thousand rounds without a single problem. I don't know how long it would go if I just kept squirting CLP into the gun and didn't do anything else but I suspect 5 thousand rounds wouldn't be out of the question.

I've shot the Montefeltro and they definitely kick harder. I've also shot with guys using them and waited until they reshot because the 1 ounce shells they were using didn't reliably work the guns. If I were interested in a Benelli it would be the Cordoba provided it had the Comfortech stock (they work). All the benefits of the SuperSport without the shiny receiver. The only drawback is the barrel porting, a feature that makes you very unpopular when you are sharing a duck blind.;)
 
I've shot the Montefeltro and they definitely kick harder.
Click to expand...

When I got my Montefeltro, I had been shooting a Model 12 until that point. Since the Model 12 had a hard butt-plate, the Montefeltro definitely felt better. I found the recoil totally fine. However, a good friend of mine who'd been shooting for several decades couldn't stand it.

I stopped shooting the Benelli when I got a Browning O/U. During some siginificant fit issues with that gun, I ended up with a Beretta 391... shooting it a ton until I got the Browning squared away.

One day, I happened to be shooting at a local sporting clays range and had both the Beretta and the Benelli. It had been a while since I shot it, so I swapped back and forth a couple times. It felt awful! The single, lighter shove of the Beretta seemed WAY more comfortable than the double-hit of the Benelli. The recoil seemed harsh and excessive. I even posted about that experience here.

However, a few months later I decided to use the Montefeltro for some hunting. In order to tune up a bit, I shot several rounds of clays with it... maybe a flat or so over a couple days. For part of the first round, I noticed the recoil. After that though, I had adjusted and it felt normal. Not bad, not harsh, not excessive.

I think the Benelli action can feel very different to people used to shooting other platforms. That difference is readily apparent and easily interpreted as bad. It's different enough that I can understand the "recoil-enhancing" comments... but I don't think the difference is as much as it may initially appear.
 
This much I know: I can shoot my 1100 with regular 12 Gauge bird loads and it essentially doesn't recoil at all. I'm not talking about me not feeling it, I'm talking about being able to hold it away from my shooter and fire it, and it barely moves. The action absorbs the recoil, not just the perception of recoil, since there's some pretty heavy stuff moving backward inside it when it cycles, and the timing of said motion coincides with peak recoil, on a gas-operated shotgun. The same inertia that operates the Benelli action is countered by an "equal and opposite" motion inside the gas gun.

That said, I can stuff about anything I want into my BT-99 and, no matter how hard it punches, I don't care, because I have a big fat Limbsaver on it. Of course, it's a single, so I don't care about followup shots.

I also believe that I could adapt to a Benelli for followup shots, even a Montefeltro, which I do find intriguing because it's awfully pretty.

I've shot ~1150 fps 7/8 oz. loads, and they break clays pretty well, at least up front. Out towards the 27, I'd just as soon have a security blanket of another 100 fps and a full ounce of shot.:D Seriously, though, your point is well-taken. I shoot light loads a fair amount, if only because they're cheaper to reload. If I didn't load them myself, though, I'd shoot whatever they have for cheap at Wal-Mart, not hard-to-find STS low recoil rounds for twice the money, so I can't blame someone else for doing the same.:)

What's the upshot?

If I were Black Majik, I'd get an R3 to fit the Wingmaster and spend some time shooting borrowed guns. If possible, go to a big demo shoot.

There's one big annual demo around here where you can try just about every shotgun that Benelli, Beretta, Ruger, Remington, Stoeger, Browning, CZ, and whoever sells. That's where I tried the 105CTi, and like I said, I want one. Liked the Gold Label, too. The only downer is, I've never seen a 105 or a Gold Label, except at the demo.:)
 
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