The Appleseed Project on the front page of the NY Times.

[carlrodd]

stiletto, my use of the word admission was not for any ulterior rhetorical purpose. declaration, announcement, offering....whatever. take your pick of the word that you find least offensive.

i certainly am not ashamed of my service. i began my service for what i believe were good reasons, and i'll continue it until i feel the organization has strayed too far from what it has been and is supposed to be and represent. this was the crux of my post. i note a trend in the US military toward the left, significantly so, which is all the more disturbing given that our military should always strive to remain nothing more than a well-sharpened apolitical tool, to be used hopefully by honorable, well-meaning civilian leaders. this ever more present, and increasingly advertised emerging ideology in the military is often accompanied with a reminder that we follow orders and maintain bearing and discipline; as though our leaders are saying, "never mind what you see going on behind the curtain which seems as though it is contrary to our professed values....just remember you do as your told." and i see many obliging uniformly. i sensed the air of this in your post, so i commented.

the discipline to follow lawful orders comprises half of what it takes to be a worthy member of the armed forces.....but to follow "lawful" orders requires possessing and using the ability to understand what a lawful order is. the armed forces are run by men, and they aren't all honorable and well-meaning. some are increasingly being found to be too cozy with civilian leaders, and as they plan their next career steps, their contact with the political world seems to be translating into ideologies and mindsets that become policy that they hoist on the services. and those policies, regardless of how questionable they may be, are always accompanied with reminders of how we are set apart as service members because we follow orders, and have the discipline to do as we're told.

winknplink said it better than i could. but to restate, you write with broad dismissive brushes, and such rhetoric, aside from seemingly being contrary to what you claim to stand for, also seems to be in line with the general air of ideology driven policy i personally note in the armed forces.....policy reinforced with reminders of our obligation to duty, honor and discipline. if that's not really you, my apologies. as well, i'm sure you had no intention of mistakenly accusing me of being ashamed of serving my country.

 

[taliv]

this is a thread about appleseed in a forum about rifle shooting. not military politics. feel free to edit your posts as you feel appropriate

 

[LaEscopeta]

this is a thread about appleseed in a forum about rifle shooting. not military politics. feel free to edit your posts as you feel appropriate

I’ve read this thread and others on THR about the Appleseed Project, and I’ve read the NYT article this thread is about. The Appleseed Project says it takes it’s inspiration from the citizen soldiers who fought in the American Revolutionary War. I’ve read when you show up for an Appleseed shoot, they tell you a story about the men who picked up their musket/rifle in 1775 and went out to defend their right against the Redcoats. It was not a sure thing the citizens would win. All of us today have rights and freedom because those men long ago put their lives on the line, and some gave their lives. The Appleseed project asks participants if required would they do the same as our forefathers? Would you be cable of winning?

All of the above is provable historic fact. After that the Appleseed rhetoric gets a little shaky. They say if enough Americans learn how to shoot rifle the way they teach, we will be able to defend ourselves against any possible threat.

In general the citizen solders on the American Revolution and of the War of 1812 did not perform that well on the battlefield. Most of the American victories required trained regular army units under experienced officers to carry the day. Untrained volunteer units were (in)famous for running after the first enemy volley. The tactics used by American General Daniel Morgan to win the Battle of Cowpens relied on his untrained men running in panic (causing the Redcoat to chase them into the trap he set with his small regular army regiment.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cowpens There are a few examples of real minutemen/militia defeating British Army Regulars (Battle of Bennington is one) but in general it was the other way around.

There is a reason the 2cd amendment says “a well-regulated militia” as opposed to “a Charlie Foxtrot militia.” There is more to being a member of an effective fighting force than hitting a little black figure on a piece of paper enough times so some Appleseed instructor stops calling you “cook.”

(I don’t have anything against the Appleseed Project, and I’m all for more people learning how to shoot. But I’m against the romanticized, incorrect telling of history.)

 

[stiletto raggio]

There is a lot more to fighting effectively than hitting silhouette targets from the prone, but there were a handful of "snipers" in Iraq who ere not particularly talented or successful, but nonetheless forced coalition forces to change the way they operated. A hunting rifle won't take out a tank, but 100,000 people who are willing to take pot shots at an occupying force does a lot to change the operational environment. I wold not want to be tasked with securing Wichita, let alone Dallas, as an unwanted occupier.

At any rate, marksmaship is a skill that is lacking in society at most people or organizations that are willing to rectify that have their hearts in the right place.

 

[Virg461]

As someone who has actually attended an Appleseed...

I will do so again this fall, with my oldest son. I shot Rifleman, and am teaching my sons to do so as well. In my opinion, it's a little difficult to argue the merits unless you've attended. I was extremely impressed with the program. They are professional, apolitical, and historically accurate.

The simple fact is that most rifle owners don't know how to use the tools they own. You can preach all you want about your right to bear arms. If you don't know how to use those arms, what difference does it make? The second amendment has absolutely nothing to do with hunting or target shooting. It has everything to do with defense of self, family, property,and liberty.

You can have a gun safe full of lovely Colts and Brownings, but if you can't hit a man size target at 500? You might as well be collecting antique baskets. That's what Appleseed is about.

 

[Ignition Override]

Virg461:

Well-spoken.
My skills are very far below what many of you guys have acquired, belong to the category you described, and would never pretend to be even a "keyboard shooter" (or warrior).

They just had an Appleseed in nw MS, but due to the temperatures/humidity, will do my best to attend one in the fall. Will be the owner of a Garand about next week, but due to ammo costs will take the '30s Savage .22 if an iron sight bolt-action is considered adequate.

 

[merlinfire]

I think some people take this Appleseed thing too seriously. To me, I want to go, but because it would be a heck of a good time. Camping out, target shooting, and learning more about marksmanship. Sounds like a great time.

Even just with our level of gun ownership and skill today as-is, it would be completely absurd for anyone to attempt to occupy the mainland US. "Rifle behind every blade of grass"....

 

[Virg461]

Merlinfire,

It will be a great time. Come with an open mind and teachable attitude and you will learn a great deal. There is a tremendous amount of satisfaction in being able to hit distant targets using only a sling as a shooting aid. Anyone can do it with a benchrest. Have fun!

 

[philpost]

At the Appleseed I attended, the instructors just stuck to April 19, 1775, along with an entreaty to become more involved in the political process. Not a word about armed resistance, militias, etc. Not only that, but I know nothing about their personal political beliefs, sexual orientations, or anything else. I came away with the impression that they felt most Americans were detached couch potatos with little sense of community or communal responsibility (my words, not theirs), but I also feel that is so inarguably true that it is uncontroversial.

 

[StoneDog]

LaEscopeta,

One should refrain from commenting in great detail if one has no first hand knowledge of a program like Appleseed. Reading about the Appleseed project on this and other forums, much less the NYT, will give you a biased opinion one way or another. Have you ever considered attending?

The Appleseed Project is a 100% volunteer organization and while individual instructor stories/techniques might vary a bit, none of them will tell you that shooting 4moa or better at 25 yards is the same as shooting 4 MOA at 500 yards nor will they tell you can fight off the gub'mint because you can reliably shoot 4moa with irons from various positions.

To that end, the discussions related to Rev War focus solely on April 19, 1775. There are only a few hours of discussion spread over the weekend. Hardly enough time to dig as deep as the Cowpens battle. To keep anyone from walking away from this thread thinking our forefather's were any less than what they really were, let me copy in a bit of a letter that General Percy sent back to England after the red coats were chased back to Boston. Read this slowly and carefully.

"... during the whole affair the Rebels attacked is in a very scattered, irregular manner, but with perseverance and resolution, nor did they ever dare to form into any regular body. Indeed, they knew too well what was proper, to do so.

Whoever looks upon them as an irregular mob, will find himself much mistaken. They have men amongst them who know very well what they are about, having been employed as Rangers against the Indians and Canadians and this country being much covered with wood, and hilly, is very advantageous for their method of fighting. . . . "

philpost

That is exactly how an Appleseed is supposed to go. Hopefully you had fun too!

Jon

 

[ScratchnDent]

At the Appleseed I attended, the instructors just stuck to April 19, 1775, along with an entreaty to become more involved in the political process. Not a word about armed resistance, militias, etc. Not only that, but I know nothing about their personal political beliefs, sexual orientations, or anything else. I came away with the impression that they felt most Americans were detached couch potatos with little sense of community or communal responsibility (my words, not theirs), but I also feel that is so inarguably true that it is uncontroversial.

This is exactly my experience as well.

It's obvious to me that anyone who believes Appleseed is pushing bullets over ballots has not actually attended an Appleseed shoot.

 

[winknplink]

Stilleto raggio. Your admission that you are an active duty member of the military does nothing more than lend evidence to the growing trend in the military of many who value what they see as order or 'measured response' over personal liberty. It comes from getting too comfy with getting told and telling others what to do. I am also in the army and I see this trend broadening all the time.

a patriot always keeps one eye on the forever suspect movements of government, and a soldier is simply a conveniently employed patriot in regard to training and his proximity to the entities that need to be perpetually scrutunized....or at least he should be.

quoted for truth

 

[winknplink]

this is a thread about appleseed in a forum about rifle shooting. not military politics. feel free to edit your posts as you feel appropriate

Seems like pertinent info to me. Seemed like a simple qualification of another person's statement as related to this topic. God forbid a real conversation break the lines of something as important as folder title and send you mods into a tizzy.

It's almost like you look for excuses to flex muscle, hoss. Don't be that guy.

 

[Wheeler44]

I like guns. I don't like nutjobs. If you want the organizations of which you are a member to maintain a good reputation, police your own ranks.

If you are referring to Mr. James Faire as being part of the "ranks" of Appleseed you are erroneous in your reference. Mr. Faire provided a range for Appleseed, as do many people. Appleseed decided not to use the range after just a few events. The fact that Mr. Faire "trained" with a member of the Huttaree a few years before Appleseed and that a felon was observed using firearms at Mr. Faire's range (not during an Appleseed event) are irrelevant to the article (except for sensationalistic value).

Shall we discuss policing the ranks of the military and/or police forces because a few folks amongst the ranks act "outside of the character" of the group as a whole?

W44

 

[happygeek]

It does surprise me that the article wasn't more biased, but you have to remember the idea that people can shoot over 500 yards is terrifying to the NYT's readership. Never mind that blunt objects are used in more murders than rifles and right around 5 times as many people are murdered with knives according to the FBI (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_11.html), you likely will never hear those purely factual statistics from the NY Times, no sensationalism to sell there.

During the 94 to 04 Federal AWB the gun control groups began trying to push for common sense restrictions on "sniper rifles" (http://www.vpc.org/graphics/snipcov2.pdf). Bear in mind they are talking about bolt action rifles, not just semi-autos. They don't seem to think that hunters should be allowed to own anything capable of hitting the broad side of a barn past 200 yards. Note that they're still pushing for restrictions on "sniper rifles", it's just that since 04 "assault weapons" have been holding their attention more.

As previously pointed out, the article doesn't have to be overly biased to scare the daylights out of the unfamiliar with firearms crowd. All they have to do is talk about how the Appleseed program is training people to be snipers and throw in some mild propaganda, the wording of which was also mentioned in a previous post.

Personally, I've been motivated to look online for an Appleseed program in my area. It does sound like a good time.

 

[Palehorseman]

I read where Fox News will be covering this Appleseed event over the weekend, hope they are balanced about it.

Waco, GA Appleseed - Aug 14-15, 2010
Saturday, August 14, 2010 at 8:30 AM - Sunday, August 15, 2010 at 4:00 PM (MT)
Waco, GA

http://www.eventbrite.com/event/723863094/

 

[230therapy]

This is what really gets me: Shooters who have a problem with Appleseed because it's not the NRA and not focused upon training the next generation of sport shooters. They seem to think any organization not in line with the NRA's mission is immediately suspect.

I see this over and over on various gun forums.

The quibbling over the training is even more hilarious. Either they think it goes too far or it's not good enough because it's not a 2,000 round Magpul Dynamics course.

The reality is that the vast majority of people have no idea how to shoot a rifle. Distance shooting is inaccessible to many shooters. At least Appleseed is going out there to train as many people as possible in the fundamentals of marksmanship.

 

[StoneDog]

I read where Fox News will be covering this Appleseed event over the weekend, hope they are balanced about it.

Waco, GA Appleseed - Aug 14-15, 2010
Saturday, August 14, 2010 at 8:30 AM - Sunday, August 15, 2010 at 4:00 PM (MT)
Waco, GA

http://www.eventbrite.com/event/723863094/

...waiting for the inevitable play on the name of this particular location and the Branch Davidian(?) massacre over in Texas years ago.

This is the first shoot hosted in Waco, GA BTW. I'm curious why FOX picked this particular range and event if not for the name and deep-south location. There are plenty of events out west, up in the north east and midwest heartland of America.

230therapy, the only times I've heard people complain (in person at least) is when they were certified NRA instructors or high power competitors and wanted to jump straight to the instructor level in Appleseed but found the program actually has rather strict guidelines that all must follow if they are to become instructors. On the other hand, many of the instructors I've meet are NRA life members, competitive shooters, firearms instructors, etc. The Appleseed message isn't that this is the only way to shoot (ie they acknowledge it is not high speed low drag CQB, for example) rather it's a fundamental tool in a shooter's kit, so to speak.

 

[kBob]

I did half an Appleseed this past year and plan to do another. My family keeps Sabbath so I choose to only do one day in a weekend.

I was formerly a state certified History teacher. I heard no history at the event from the staff that seemed the least made up or uninformed.

As to local militia at Cowpens, when they fled the fence lines between a third and one half (depending on your sources) of the British/loyalist Officers and NCOs were on the ground with bullet wounds.

Imagine for a second closing with enemy regulars with one third of your Company officers down and one third of your NCOs down....and this before privates were encouraged or trained to step up to take leade4rship positions in combat. Yeah right those militia guys were totally ineffective and had little role in the victory at Cowpens.

I served in the US Army as an Enlisted Infantryman when there were many in the ranks that were draftees. Later, after using my GI bill, I was given a Direct Appointment as a Regular Army Officer of Field Artillery (Cannon Battery Officer) in Army long after the last two year draftee had left the service or become a Regular.

I found the Appleseed training to be outstanding marksmanship training and the history teachings to be enjyable.

As to the value of shooting at 25 meters to a person that might have to shoot "500 yards", it beats no traing at all. Without the same skill set to hit those 400 yard subtense targets at 25 yards no amount of education on reading the wind, slope or understanding balistic curves will get on on target.

Most of my shooting before raising my right hand to take the oath, likely over 90 percent, was done at 50 feet with .22 LR rifles with iron sights. far less than one percent was done over 100 yards, as in a few shots twice with an old M-1 Carbine or a beatrer K-98. Oddly when I was first handed an XM-16E1 rifle after I zeroed at 25 metersI was able to drop 300 meter targets from the first shots at that range, Oddly the first time I switched an M-14A1 to semi to engage at 600 meters the target dropped at the first trigger pull. Strangely the 900 meter (over half a mile) target infront of the M-60 GPMG I first shot at that range fell down at the first burst.

I tire of the ya-ya about the "uselessness" of 25 meter subtense training.

I tire of the ya-ya about the uselessness of the idea of militia verses standing Army.

Here is a thought for you. How different in operationand use is say an M-4 Carbine with an M-16A1? Have M-203s changed in the last 40 years? Exactly how different is an M1-A1 tank from a 30 year old M-1 tank? Have Bradley Fighting Vehicles changed much since they came on line? Is that Paladin 155 SP really that different than an M-109A1 SP Gun?

How many vets under 60 are there available to use those systems or teach "militia" youngsters to use them?

All the milita crap aside, Appleseed Does provide really good marksmanship training and history that Americans should be proud of.

-kBob

 

[Hatterasguy]

I don't really give a crap about the politics, thats a different subject.

I'm going to the Appleseed in September with my friend for a good weekend. Were going to get a hotel and make a little vacation out of it. Shooting all day, and drinking all night.

Plus I might even improve a bit.

 

[Virg461]

I don't really give a crap about the politics, thats a different subject.

I'm going to the Appleseed in September with my friend for a good weekend. Were going to get a hotel and make a little vacation out of it. Shooting all day, and drinking all night.

Plus I might even improve a bit.

Then you're exactly the type of gun owner that they need to reach. We need to realize why America, and the 2nd amendment, are unique in this world. Understanding the circumstances and the sacrifices that made both possible is always worthwhile.

 

[MeanStreaker]

I'm curious why FOX picked this particular range and event if not for the name and deep-south location. There are plenty of events out west, up in the north east and midwest heartland of America.

FOX worked with Appleseed to choose the location. They only had two weekends they could come and shoot (cameras). The crew is in the SE and said they would prefer a shoot that is fairly well attended (as would Appleseed). There were four or five to choose from and GA made the most sense.

Hopefully they won't focus on the fact it's in the town of Waco and will focus on the range's name - West Georgia Youth Range.

 

[StoneDog]

MeanStreaker, looking forward to hearing more about it. Not AARs posted yet...

 

[Hatterasguy]

Then you're exactly the type of gun owner that they need to reach. We need to realize why America, and the 2nd amendment, are unique in this world. Understanding the circumstances and the sacrifices that made both possible is always worthwhile.

Oh I understand all to well, but I don't 100% agree with the appleseeds version of history. Well at least from what I have heard reading this thread. I don't really want to sit through a dumb shooting redcoat lecture. I think they romanticise the revolution and militia. They don't discuss how useless they were in most engagements, and how their is a heck of a lot more to fighting a war than being able to shoot straight. Actualy at the time marksmanship was not taught in the army; soliders in formation were not instructed to aim.

Having done a bit of reading on the Revolution(and being related to two signers of the Declaration of Independence) I think I appreciate it for what it was, but I don't hold it in a romantic spotlight. That doesn't serve history, just modern politics. Being an amature historian one of my favorite pasttimes is cutting through modern images of events to try to get a more accurite view of them. The Revolution was not romantic, it split towns and family's apart, and caused a lot of suffering. I remember in one soliders book I was reading he ran into his best friend who sided with the British, he best friend nearly killed him with his sword before he realized what he was doing.

Having said that I think the Appleseed is a very good idea, the average American does not have a very good understanding and hopefully it will spark them into doing a bit of actual research into it. Plus $70 for a weekend of good shooting instruction is a down right good deal. Although the way I see it the Appleseed is more closely realated to Swiss shooting tradition than American, thats why I'm going to bring my Sig and K31.

 

[happygeek]

The Revolution was not romantic, it split towns and family's apart, and caused a lot of suffering. I remember in one soliders book I was reading he ran into his best friend who sided with the British, he best friend nearly killed him with his sword before he realized what he was doing.

I remember reading somewhere that roughly 1/3 were loyalists [Tories], 1/3 stayed out of it, and 1/3 were rebels [Patriots].

Their politics were ... interesting back then. Democracy in America has evolved a lot since then.