The arms race for deer

[~z]

longrifleman, I agree 100%. Know your limitations.

MCgunner, I bow hunt too, I hunt with pistols, I have taken a host of critters with my 300 WM. 7-08 or .25-06 are my general goto rifles. I dont advocate BUYING at .224 diam rifle for the purpose of deer hunting. Believe me, you will get flamed plenty well for a .243. It all comes down to the choice of bullet design then putting that bullet where you want it. Nothing (well, almost nothing) upsets me more than hearing someone say "I cant believe I made that shot" when hunting. I love to hear it at the range. Take home message: Know your limitations & the capabilities of your equipment.
~z

 

[MCgunner]

Yeah, the 1000 ft lb thing is old salt wisdom, however, some of the same gunwriters who write that hunt will lesser handguns. I've personally killed several deer with the .357, 2 from a revolver that makes 700 ft lbs at the muzzle and one of those shots was a lung shot the far side of 50 yards. But, for rifles, I reckon 1000 ft lbs is as good a benchmark as any. There is more to it than that, but it's not a bad wisdom to follow. I want a little lead in my bullet to deliver that 1000 ft lbs, too. 45 or 50 grains is gettin' a little slim.

One thing, the argument over deer calibers is as old as smokeless powder. I don't know how many conversations I've been in over this very subject over the years. Needless to say, there are varying opinions on the subject, LOL!

 

[arjppj]

i use a .300 for a 70 yard shot, not because it is big and bad, but because it can take down a deer as soon as it is hit. I dont have to worry about a wounded deer running around. I would rather have the deer pass quickly or instantly instead of it feeling the pain for the 50 yards that they run.

 

[MCgunner]

i use a .300 for a 70 yard shot, not because it is big and bad, but because it can take down a deer as soon as it is hit. I dont have to worry about a wounded deer running around. I would rather have the deer pass quickly or instantly instead of it feeling the pain for the 50 yards that they run.

I've had one deer take a step in the dozens I've shot with a .257 Roberts. That was when I was playing with 117 grain Hornadys (too much penetration, not enough expansion.) You don't need a .300 to anchor a deer. It will, of course, kill deer. If you like the gun, fine, but I quit hunting with my 7 mag on deer. It was overly destructive on meat. I could have handloaded it down or used a less volitile bullet, but why bother when I have better calibers for deer? I don't know if I'll ever hunt with that 7 again. I might get to go Nilgai hunting or something, never know.

 

[Byron Quick]

I lost a doe in a beaver swamp one bitterly cold morning. I hit behind the right front shoulder. Knocked her down and she wasn't twitching. Houston, I have a problem: When I worked the lever of the Marlin 336 (.35 Remington), a failure to feed from hell occurred. Watched her for fifteen minutes and then jacked down the tree with my out of commission rifle. I got about twenty yards from the doe when she jumped up and ran through the bushes. Hair knocked loose from her off side about the size of a dinner plate on the ground where she was lying. I never found a blood trail. Looked for the rest of the morning and all of the afternoon. No sign anywhere.

I mis-diagnosed my problem. It wasn't the caliber. It was the Remington CoreLokt bullet. Also I never quite trusted that rifle after that failure to feed that required tools to alleviate.

So I got another rifle. (Never difficult to get me to decide to get another.) Ran into a Browning Safari II in .300 WinMag. Now where I hunted at the time, most shots were 100 yards or less but there were several two to three hundred yard shots possible. The Safari II performed well on these shots. I would still have deer run seventy five yards are so from time to time. After being shot diagonally in both lungs. Took me a while to notice the condition of the Remington Corelokts and realize that the bullet itself wasn't performing well. So I started using better ammunition.

I've also got a .35 Whelen. I haven't taken but one deer with it. But that one kinda made a believer of me for using 'unnecessarily large' calibers for game. I was aiming for a shot on the right front shoulder which should have exited the left short ribs. The buck took a step just as the trigger broke. The bullet hit the right short ribs instead and exited the left hip. The deer dropped right there from shock to the spine. The aorta was severed and the deer bled out before the spinal shock wore off. I don't believe the less energetic calibers would have had the power to shock the deer's spine. But I could very well be wrong.

 

[T.R.]

I know two local ranchers who do not allow magnum rifles on their lands. They're not accepting cattle losses from magnum powered bullets lobbed over the horizon. Whether a magnum bullet is an actual threat to their cattle is open to debate. But you won't win such a debate with these cattlemen!
Jack

 

[BIGR]

I hunted for years around the house with a Muzzle loader and rifle. Killed a few with a rifle but never fired a shot with the muzzleloader due to the limited deer population and a buck only season. Late nineties started we leasing land four hours from the house where the deer population is huge. I often thought that the slow bullet out my muzzleloader would not be effective. During the muzzleloader season I got to see first hand how deadly a good .50 caliber is. I have probaly killed more deer with a muzzleloader than with the rifle. Most of them dropped in their tracks or ran only a short distance. Most of the time I use a 30.06 during the rifle season but have taken one deer with the 300 winnie just to see how effective it was. According to what I have read the .50 caliber muzzleloader has way less energy than the 06 or 300 winnie does. From what I have seen the .50 caliber muzzleloader puts them down just as good with the proper shot placement.

It seems that rifle calibers are just like pick up trucks, everyone has their favorite or wants the most powerful one available. In the past I have been caught up in that magnum rifle frenzy and wanted to have a big powerful rifle that sounded like a cannon but later decided that the .06 is plenty. I do believe that each hunter should be responseable enough to use a big enough caliber to efficently harvest the game animal, though it does not require a bazooka to do that. Hunting calibers are a personal preference and if anyone wants to use a 375 H & H on Bambi more power to them. Atleast we live in a great country where we have a choice .......

 

[MCgunner]

Byron, you seem to have a yen for .35 caliber.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Byron, you seem to have a yen for .35 caliber.

Try the .35 Brown-Whelen, driving a 225 grain Nosler PJ at 2800 fps.

 

[wanderinwalker]

I too am confused by some of the cannons I see deer hunters sighting in at the range. Most of them can't shoot them well and don't shoot them that often. I mean, is it that much of an accomplishment to whack a 10x14" steel gong at 100 yards 3 out of 4 times from a bench rest?

Anyway, though I have not taken a deer, I hunt with a .260 Remington. You should hear the stuff I get told, like "9 out of 10 guys shooting a .260 sit to pee" and things like that. My reply is, "So? The other guy can out-shoot you any day, every day, any range, any time. Want to find out which group I fall into?" That is usually enough to quiet people.

But I do fail to see the need for monster rifles. My grandfather and uncle both speak glowingly of the "lowly" .308 and .243. Both have killed more deer than I ever will (but we'll see! I still have time on my side! ). I figure if it worked for them for 40 years, something similar should work for me just as well.

 

[bowfin]

/*I too am confused by some of the cannons I see deer hunters sighting in at the range. Most of them can't shoot them well and don't shoot them that often.*/

Do not make the mistake of extrapolating your experiences and your conditions for the whole country.

Here in Nebraska, people have plenty of room to shoot, many don't go to a range because they have enough land available close by to set up a target 200-400 yards out and shoot for free whenever they want to do so. Many hunters and shooters here have never been to an honest to goodness range, they just go shoot "out back" and are not limited in ranges they shoot, not even by walking back and forth to the target. You drive your pickup to the backstop.

I would say your experiences are somewhat the opposite of what I see here, in general. For the most part, the guy who shows up with a .243 or .30-30 does so because he is afraid of recoil, not having shot enough to figure out he won't even feel it during the hunt, and it won't kill him during practice. The guys who have a 7mm Remingtons or .300 Winchesters have, for the most part, have them because they can consistently hit their targets at ranges where the wind plays havoc with lighter bullets traveling at slower speeds. This is not a broad sweeping statement covering everybody of course, but an educated guess that if you took any 20 guys who hunt with a 7mm Remington Magnum and put them up against any 20 who show up with a .243 or .30-30 and have them shoot at 200 plus yards, the "cannon" guys will walk away winners 9 times out of 10, because the "graduated" to the belted magnums.

Again, that is here, in my little corner of the world, it isn't New Hampshire or Texas or Georgia or California. Things might be (and probably are) totally different in your corner.

By the way, anyone who thinks the .260 Remington isn't adequate for deer needs shoot more deer to form an intelligent opinion. (Okay, based on my first and secondhand experiences on the 6.5x55, a .260 twin for all practical purposes.)
We don't start with the "sit to pee" jokes here until we see how you dress.

 

[ScottsGT]

Harry Stone, we must use the same hunting technique. I've been going 5 years now and have not seen anything to shoot at yet myself! Myself, I just decided to swap rifles from a bubbaized Enfield in .308 to a Marlin .30-30. My main reason was that the Enfield was too long to fit in our stands and move it around without bumping into the roof or roof supports. The Marlin is 10" shorter, we hunt short fields, and if I hunt the big fields, I can try out some of the new leverrution(SP?) ammo.
I thin this year I'm going to get out earllier in the season before the dog runners run the deer off for the season.

 

[bowfin]

I almost forgot to add, HOW you hunt makes a big difference in rifle and caliber selection. My recommendations are from a guy who doesn't hunt out of treestands, I usually hunt open fields or the river channel of the Platte, which means a rare shot at less than 150 yards. I have had twice as many 200+ yard shots as I have had 100 yard shots. My brother is a treestand guy, he has had ten times more 50 yard shots than 150 yard shots.

We used to hunt a place where my brother sat on the edge of a canyon, and I still hunted down below in the canyon. He wanted a heavy barrelled .308 bolt action, like a Remington 700 Varmint, with at least a 3x9 scope, and I dreamed of a Remington Model 7 in .35 Remington, with a 1 3/4x4 scope, or even a peepsight, yet we only hunted a quarter mile away from each other.

We deer hunters could learn from golfers, and carry a bag full of implements for each situation as it occurs.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I almost forgot to add, HOW you hunt makes a big difference in rifle and caliber selection. My recommendations are from a guy who doesn't hunt out of treestands, I usually hunt open fields or the river channel of the Platte, which means a rare shot at less than 150 yards. I have had twice as many 200+ yard shots as I have had 100 yard shots. My brother is a treestand guy, he has had ten times more 50 yard shots than 150 yard shots.

We used to hunt a place where my brother sat on the edge of a canyon, and I still hunted down below in the canyon. He wanted a heavy barrelled .308 bolt action, like a Remington 700 Varmint, with at least a 3x9 scope, and I dreamed of a Remington Model 7 in .35 Remington, with a 1 3/4x4 scope, or even a peepsight, yet we only hunted a quarter mile away from each other.

We deer hunters could learn from golfers, and carry a bag full of implements for each situation as it occurs.

And a caddy and a golf cart.

"Hmmm, I think this shot calls for a .30-06, Jackson."

"Given the lie of the green, I'd suggest the 7mm Remington, sir."

 

[50caliber123]

Where I hunt in Michigan, almost all shots occur in the 25 yard range. 50 yards in long-distance. My buddy shoots a .308 CETME, and is a damn good shot with it, but it's still way too much gun. The bullet doesn't even expand well at such short range. We got a deer, he hit it twice with the .308, and the Winchester Supreme 180gr. Soft Points didn't even mushroom. They just kept going. I used a Yugo sks with 122gr Wolf HP (I found these bullets to tumble badly, when I shot the deer in the head, rather than mushroom) That will change next year, as I am looking into PMC 125gr SP with my MAK-90. Point I'm making is that 7.62x39 is perfect for medium-range work for me, but to each his own. I won't begrudge someone for using too much gun. I always joked that if I could, I'd lug a .50BMG rifle out just because

 

[wanderinwalker]

/*I too am confused by some of the cannons I see deer hunters sighting in at the range. Most of them can't shoot them well and don't shoot them that often.*/

Do not make the mistake of extrapolating your experiences and your conditions for the whole country.

Here in Nebraska, people have plenty of room to shoot, many don't go to a range because they have enough land available close by to set up a target 200-400 yards out and shoot for free whenever they want to do so. Many hunters and shooters here have never been to an honest to goodness range, they just go shoot "out back" and are not limited in ranges they shoot, not even by walking back and forth to the target. You drive your pickup to the backstop.

I would say your experiences are somewhat the opposite of what I see here, in general. For the most part, the guy who shows up with a .243 or .30-30 does so because he is afraid of recoil, not having shot enough to figure out he won't even feel it during the hunt, and it won't kill him during practice. The guys who have a 7mm Remingtons or .300 Winchesters have, for the most part, have them because they can consistently hit their targets at ranges where the wind plays havoc with lighter bullets traveling at slower speeds. This is not a broad sweeping statement covering everybody of course, but an educated guess that if you took any 20 guys who hunt with a 7mm Remington Magnum and put them up against any 20 who show up with a .243 or .30-30 and have them shoot at 200 plus yards, the "cannon" guys will walk away winners 9 times out of 10, because the "graduated" to the belted magnums.

Again, that is here, in my little corner of the world, it isn't New Hampshire or Texas or Georgia or California. Things might be (and probably are) totally different in your corner.

By the way, anyone who thinks the .260 Remington isn't adequate for deer needs shoot more deer to form an intelligent opinion. (Okay, based on my first and secondhand experiences on the 6.5x55, a .260 twin for all practical purposes.)
We don't start with the "sit to pee" jokes here until we see how you dress.

bowfin,
I was trying to avoid making blanket statements like that. I've fired one "Magnum" rifle in my life so far. It was a .300 WSM my brother's friend bought while he was home on leave during Christmas. (Brother bought a Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70.) It shot well and the recoil wasn't bad, but I told myself beforehand "I'm gonna get whacked." After saying that, it wasn't so bad. Tolerable, almost, but I'd go to a 7mm magnum if I wanted a boomer like that!

And around here I'd be hard pressed to find too many legitimate 200+ yard shots. Some of the powerline cuts you can stretch that and then some, but the odds don't favor the hunter on those cuts; I can only think of one thing I've seen that MIGHT have been a deer on a powerline. It was hunting season, but I was walking my Lab, my rifle was at home and it wasn't legal to shoot from the road I was on anyway. Too many strikes against that one! :banghead:

But I like my little .260 because it will work equally well at 20 yards as it will on those 200 yard stretches, shoots flat enough I can go from 50 to 200 yards on the range without much trouble and the rifle is light enough to stay in my hands while the blow-down, boulders and hills are tryiing to put me down.

BTW, I hope to get out West someday, at least to fish, hopefully to hunt, maybe to stay.

Edited: I've seen the shooting done by the guys who pick on me for carrying such a "girl's gun." There is no doubt in my mind that they'd lose to me in a shoot-off, at any range, and even less doubt about their ability to get totally lost in the woods!

 

[Sulaco]

I know a guy who hunts Va whitetail (small to med sized deer, a 30-06 is overgunning) with a 338WinMag. Not because he thinks he needs that much gun or because he's compensating for poor shooting, but because he LIKES that gun. He got it for a steal and has put effort into load development and target practice.

He has at least 5 or 6 suitable rifles (all smaller than the 338), but almost always uses the 338 because it's his favorite.

Chris

Same here. Where I live, there is a large variety of terrain but mostly woods which keeps shots within 100 yards on average. I know a guy who shoots a .338 Weatherby Magnum not because he needs that much gun, but because he likes it. He takes it out West some and shoots long range and he uses it in the woods here at home. He has a massive scope on it and he kills more deer than anybody I know. And he only trophy hunts these days.

I will admit to picking on the magnum crowd, but when somebody performs like he does, he can shoot whatever he dang well pleases!

Me? I'll stick with my .270 Winchester.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Years ago I read an article in a Virginia game magazine on hunting ethics. One of the dumber statements in that article was, "You wouldn't use a 458 Magnum for deer."

I scratched my head. Why wouldn't you use your .458 Magnum, assuming you had one, for deer? What special ethical issues does it raise?

You could load it down to about .45-70 levels for deer -- and no one would say a .45-70 is inappropriate for deer. And it would give you real practice with your "heavy" that would stand you in good stead if you were to go to Africa, or perhaps use it in Alaska for big bears.

I don't knock magnums -- I don't own any, except for a 7mm Rem Mag -- but I don't knock other people who use them.