the B.U.G. last chance before "curtains"

Status
Not open for further replies.
O

orangeninja

Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2003
Messages
3,117
I have been considering getting a BUG (back up gun) for some time now. I initially had a Taurus PT111 Millenium...which was okay, but a real pain to clean, therefore I shot it very little and never became what I would call proficient. I also tried a Sig 239....and I HATED the feel and weight of the thing. Not worth it for 6 to 9 rounds. I recently saw a LNIB Sig 232 stainless in .380 for $350...and I've got to say, almost bought it due to its slimness and weight but here are my questions.

1. I carry a .40 S&W daily, on duty and off...should my BUG be of the same caliber?

2. I will consider this to be a weapon of retreat....meaning I have already lost the fight and am trying to get away with my life...is a .380 enough? If I were knowingly going into a situation like that I'd prefer a 30'06. :)

3. Round count is important...I would need at least 6.

4. Weight is a consideration...it will be velcroed to my vest, I don't want bulgding or flopping around, so most compacts are out of the question.

5. Accuracy is a must, I have to be able to fight with it, and I suck with revolvers so they are out.

The guns I was considering were:

the glock g36.... .45ACP. I know its a different caliber, but anyone who has ever gone to a BUG in the past that I can remember hearing about never got a chance to reload anyhow.

The Taurus Millenium PT140 or PT145 in the "Pro" series, since they have been deemed reliable.

Keltec, but they easily have the worst trigger I have ever seen.

Springfield XD compact...?

and here is where I need help....what do you guys, as "shooters" know and prefer about theses weapons? Are there any I have missed that you recommend? As a note, a 1911 is completely out of the question....regulations and lawsuits you know.
 
how about one of the kel-tecs in 40 S&W. i have a p11 in 9mm, and a glock model 19. the kel-tec is the lightest 9mm you can find. you wont notice the crappy trigger pull if you ever need to use it as a backup. light, inexpensive, and the newer ones seem to be very reliable. its not like you will be shooting thousands of rounds out of it.
 
Alduro;

I don't see you mentioning the various versions of Kahr in .40. Surely you know about them, do you have a problem with the brand? I would think that something there would fit your desire to retain the same caliber & yet be very easily concealed.

900F
 
Revolvers

I'm only seeing mention of automatics for a BUG. The main reason I would think for a BUG is malf. of your duty weapon, thereby necessating use of a BUG. I'd lean towards absolutely reliability:
.357 2-3" bbl, 5 shot, hammerless or bobbed hammer, fixed sights. Ruger SP101 comes immediatley to mind
50L.gif

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=5720&return=Y



Well...I missed your round count requirement, but I'll post the above anyways. What is the reasoning for the round requirement? If its a must, then I suggest Kahr or Taurus Millenium in 40.
 
What make and model is your primary duty weapon?

I carry a Glock 22 with a Glock 27 as back up.
Magazine compatability is a plus. If my G22 goes out of action or I lose it, I still have a gun that can use the mags on my belt. Giving me considerably more flexibility than a small low capacity gun.
The Glock 27 loaded with 9+1 rounds weighs in at 27 ounces.
 
Actually I haven't considered a Kahr yet

I'll look at one. Aren't the stainless ones real heavy though?
 
They are a bit heavy, but they have a new polymer lineup that you might want to give a go. They are also accurate, reliable, and powerful. However, unless your secondary gun will take the magazines from your primary gun, you aren't going to need ammo interchangability. Why? Because you won't have time to transfer rounds from one weapon to another. Most fights take 3-5 seconds and 4-5 rounds. Don't worry about the calibers being the same.
 
The Kahr PM9 and P9 are light weight, small, and accurate.

The G36 is fine but the G26 (9mm), G27 (.40) and G33 (.357SIG) give you more rounds in a smaller package. They're accurate and reliable. The G36 is nearly the size of the mid sized Glocks (19, 23, 32) but a little slimmer.
A G19 with pre ban mags gives you 15+1 rounds.

You can also use the higher cap mags in the mini Glocks.

Rich
 
I carry a Glock 26 on the left side of my vest, in an Uncle Mike's holster under the velcro strap. If 9mm isn't your preferred choice, you have the options of .40 and .357sig. You could move up to the Glock 32 in 10mm, or the Glock 36 in .45 if you don't mind a little bigger gun.

If the Glocks aren't your 'cup of tea', try out the Springfield XD9/40 sub-compact, or the Kahr pistols.

If I ever switch primary guns (HK USP45 to a Glock 21), I'll switch out my BUG from a Glock 26 to a 30 (double-stacked .45, compatible with the 21.) The 30 is a pretty substantial BUG, and will definitely "bulge" under my shirt. But, who cares?
 
I'm in the process of choosing a BUG. There are excellent subcompact guns chambered in 9mm, so I see no need to suffer with a .380.

I have fired and like the Kahr PM9; light, compact, accurate, and a very nice double action trigger right from the box. It holds 8 rounds in it's magazine. It will make an excellent pocket gun.

Now, CZ is coming out with the RAMI, a subcompact, 10 round 9mm or 8 round .40. Now, it's all steel and double-stack, so it won't be as light or as compact, but CZ makes excellent guns. It can be carried cocked and locked or with a DA first shot. It will also, with some protrusion take magazine from a CZ-75 which is my main carry gun. It won't be in stores in the US for another 30 days.
PicCZ_2075_m40.jpg
The US gun will ship with an optional slide stop.
 
I tried some and here are my observations

The Glock compacts were small and light, but only the 36 and 30 fit my hand. I hate my pinky hanging off, Can't do it. The 30 WILL bulge, badly, the 36 seems like a good choice, though probably a stout recoil.

The Kahrs are not bad, but for the price the Glock 36 is a lot better. The Kahr triggers leave somthing to be desired, but at least they fill my hand, not the micros but the regulars. Being able to "palm" a weapon is important for shot placement and follow up shots.

The Kel Tec? Forget it, too small, finger hangs off and terrible trigger. Other than that it is a good price and I'm sure it is reliable.

The Taurus Millenium Pro PT145....I don't think I've seen a gun so small, feel so good. This gun fit my hand like it was made for it. The 9mm and .40 are good too, but not as good. The price is nice as well and the capacity is right on. This is a contender.

The .380 is out....I can't see my life hanging on by a .380.

The Ruger SP101? WAY too heavy, I could carry a Sig Pro .40 with less weight and about the same bulk.

XD? Haven't got to try it yet, but it appears that my little finger will hang off the end. Not acceptable.

Sig 239...its okay...but too heavy and the grip is ackward.

My choices are between the Glock 36 and the Taurus Millenium Pro 145......the Glock 30 felt AWSOME, but its a little on the thick side.
 
I'm not in LEO or security so the chances of me being involved in a situation where I need to exchange 15+ rounds from a backup gun are pretty slim. Having said that, I wouldn't hesitate to have a primary and a back up in different chamberings. I usually carry a Kahr P9 as primary and a P32 as backup. If I were an officer and carried a .40 as primary, I wouldn't hesitate to carry either a P9 or 38/357 snub as backup. On the other hand, if your primary is, say, a G22, it makes sense to consider a G27 as a backup as the G22 mags work in either gun and ammo certainly would work in either gun.

I just can't see it being a very strong real world issue for most folks under most conditions.
 
My thoughts on a BUG is that if you need a BUG, the situation has escalated and it shouldn't be smaller than the primary. You're either out of ammo, or the primary has malf'd and you need another gun very badly.

Why's a 1911 out of the question? Weight? Pshaw'. Oh yeah, regulations and lawsuits you said. Again, Pshaw'. We're talking save your life here, first things first. If thats your concern then do not go anywhere that you'd need to defend yourself (sic). If weight then just think of it as a premium that your 'insurance' requires of you.

I don't understand why people look for bugs that will fit in to their wardrobe, so go smaller in effort to acheive the goal. Bug means backup for after the shhtf in some way. If you're serious about SD, then you alter your wardrobe around your guns. Makes more sense I think.

Why are revo's out? You suck with them? Practice. Besides, it's like you said, you'll be running and creating distance, or they're right on top of you in which case revo's would be plenty accurate enough to save your butt. Jus cuz you can't shoot one hole groups at 25 yds don't mean nothing.

I vote for two identical guns. Magazine compatability, manual of arms the same for anticipation of high stress situations, and appropriate wardrobe and holsters to accomadate your choices. Good luck.

YMMV.
 
S&W, Colt, Taurus, Rossi, or Charter 2000 snub revolver loaded w/ .38SPL +P....

Three facts of life....

1. BUG's don't always get the same care & attention as the primary weapon. This is especially true of concealed BUG's.

2. If you need a BUG, you need it to work reliably NOW!

3. Snub revolver BUG's have saved many lives since their invention. Hard to fault success like that. :D
 
re: 1911

1. I can't change wardrobe around a gun...its an issued uniform.

2. 1911 or any unauthorized weapon in any job will get you fired at BEST. Not worth the food on my table when there are other options.

3. Weight being a premium on insurance? If your wearing a Sam Brown with primary weapon, 2 extra mags, at least 1 set of cuffs, 1 radio, possibly a baton, cell, pager...etc. Then put on a level 3A vest, then of course you should arleady have boots pants shirt, undershirt, etc....weight becomes a premium. Try running down someone wearing all that crap and it'll begin to make sense.

Revolvers don't make sense for a couple of reasons to me. First, carrying 2 completely different platforms under stress is really gonna foul me up. Thats me, not every officer. I know many who wear a snub .38 ankle rig...I won't but they like it. Secondly 5 rounds? Nope, I'll pass, especially when you consider how long it takes to reload vs. how many rounds you have. Besides, from ballistic charts, the .380 and .38 are very similar in effectiveness.

I think a 9mm, .40 or .45 is my primary choice.

Kahr....costs too much for what you get, great grip, good design and I love the sights....but not worth the pennies.

I think Glock or Taurus. Time to flip a coin. Thanks guys.
 
Personally, I'd go with a P-40 by Keltec. They are accurate, small, reliable (if you hold it with a VERY firm grip - otherwise they malfunction) and load with same ammo preferably. Although the Keltec does not usually work well with the heavy bullets, it LOVES the light ones. Buy, if you don't have an above average grip strength and use it, the Keltec 40 won't work.
 
I'm not a LEO, just a housewife, but:

The G36, IMO, is an excellent choice for a BUG.

See my reply to the thread under Autoloaders:New to Glocks, (pg2).

A girlfriend, now ex-LEO (Meth, undercover, 12 year veteran total) carried one fron the first month after they came out, and needed it once. She's still alive and kicking - the goblin is worm food.

A current FBI street beat I have had the pleasure to shoot with twice carries one as his primary piece, with a Docter sight. That's the set-up I'm saving up for as a CCW alternative.

Just my experience and opinion.

Trisha
 
last chance before "curtains"

Hello Alduro,

As you're obviously going into harm's way, I agree with the suggestions that your secondary weapon should be compatable with your primary.
In your circumstances after you decide on your secondary, please consider a third last chance option, in the form of an airweight j-frame with crimson laser grips.
In the event that you are down, and/or wounded, and cannot maintain a proper grip, bring the weapon up for proper sighting, or are in close body contact, the revolver is not subject to "limp wristing" or "out of battery"malfunctions, and the laser grip is more efficient than "point & shoot".
Lastly if you need to arm a trusted associate, almost everyone will know how to operate the revolver without instruction.
I realize your already carrying a lot, but again, in your profession,
I suggest finding a way to carry an under 20oz. loaded life saver.

Stay safe,

Frank
 
Thanks Frank

I don't believe I will be in harms way anymore than any other LEO...sometimes less in fact...but sometimes more. Depends.
The .40 is an issued Sig 229. Some of my associates carry 226
 
I carry a 5-shot J frame as my BUG. I find that it's just as easy to operate as my Sig. In case of emergency point and pull trigger. No levers or buttons. I look upon my BUG as an "Oh Jesus" gun. It's a trade off of course. Light weight and compact frame in exchange for only five rounds, but I also know officers who go with the G27 and are happy with it. Whatever one carries make sure you are competent with it.
 
If you're okay with 6 + 1 you could do a lot worse than a Glock 36. I just took mine to range. Recoil is really not that bad for a light (27 oz., loaded) .45acp. Glock's recoil-spring design is probably the reason.
 
I cannot recommend what will be the best for you, but I have a Kahr PM9 as my BUG. The Sig P232 in stainless is a beautiful pistol. I used to have a P230. I'm just not a big fan of 380s anymore. The stainless Sig weighs quite a bit. The alloy 230 was a lot lighter. I still would not choose either one. I will not carry anything under 9mm or 38 special in power any more, even as a backup. Watch-Six
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

T
  • Locked
Looking for B.U.G.
Replies
22
Views
1K
TXMoonshine
T
S
  • Locked
Opinions on CCW pistol for me
Replies
20
Views
1K
The Lone Haranguer
T
T
  • Locked
Handgun Pricing / Dealers in IL - Advise?
Replies
5
Views
618
SpaceCowboy
S
C
  • Locked
Taurus 945 opinions
Replies
14
Views
5K
Moonclip
M
O
  • Locked
Facts needed. .380 for defense?
2
Replies
36
Views
2K
fastbolt
fastbolt
Back
Top