The Backlash against student gun owners, I was contacted by the Dean of Sudents @MSU!

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+1 John! I just wanted to quote this

You have chosen this path, whether you realize it or not. You have set yourself up as a pro-gun activist. What you just got comes with the territory. Let this be your wake-up call to begin preparing for cases like this in the future. You will want to rehearse the things that you will say for both private and public discourse. You want to fully understand your rights as well as the policies for any institution you may have to deal with. The road you are walking is a long one and one not without its bumps and curves. I am proud to have you choose to walk it along side us.
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as illustrative of the process of guarding ALL of our rights and at any time. We all do what we can, when we can.

And, by the way John, if that "mini manifesto" is what you wrote on only a half a cup of coffee, God help us all after you drink two or three! :neener:
 
Mark, document EVERYTHING. If you get pulled over, keep track. If you get followed by campus fuzz, document. If your professors say stuff to you, document it.
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Great advice, in fact I would go it one further. Carry an audio recorder with you, and if any faculty or staff contact you about this again, merely pull out the recorder and inform them that you are going to record your conversation for both your and their protection. (I had a boss years ago that stood up to an abisive division manager and ended up doing this for CYA, I ended up doing the same thing later with another abusive supervisor.)
 
I'm not sure what the draw is to put personal info and pictures on places like my-space and the others......... must be a kid thing.

My personal belief:

The only people who need to know about me or my hobbies are friends I know personally... The info you put on the net will likely be out there forever, and may come back to haunt you some day. Something to consider.

Son
 
^^^
And, you know, while part of me agrees, the other part of me says "Why the hell should I stay in the closet with my firearm hobby? So I don't upset the sheep? The reason why they've gone sheepish is because of their own ignorance.

I'm done hiding in the closet. Let them engage me. Let me engage them.

We're not going to win this one by being bashful.
 
Son35:

I will guess that Mark's photos were online *before* the VT shooting. How long they've been online should be unimportant so long as they were not taken in an illegal location like a dorm room. He has already stated they were in an off-campus apartment.

Going underground is an action associated with guilt or hiding something unpalatable. If we, as gun owners resort to behavior that projects our own discomfort with the hobby, then doesn't it fan the flames of our detractors?

Why should anyone refrain from posting pictures of legal possessions? Is a photo of holding a pistol or rifle different from one including a hunting knife, fast car, large snake, etc. All have the potential to be offensive to someone, but do they warrant closer examination if they're not illegal?

We're getting to the point where our children, neighbors, and co-workers are encouraged to turn in anyone of whom they are suspicious. In *their* opinion. What happened to legal rights.

Mark, I think you're making a VERY important stand here. Push back HARD.
You are right, you are legal.
 
We're not going to win this one by being bashful. - CannonFodder
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I believe persuasion will be more effective than confrontation, but of course it could come to confrontation. That wouldn't be the first card to play though.

My first question would be whether the law, including property rights, and imperial courts were on my side. Then I would ponder whether being headstrong or impatient was worth the possible consequences, as in losing any freedom to carry or even own a gun. Somehow I think any real movement for change in our culture should be a balance of youthful enthusiasm and mature judgment.
 
HI,
I never said he should hide or go underground, but the fact remains the pictures make him a target to the anti-gunners that I'm sure includes the majority of the campus. As we all know so well there is no reasoning or common ground with people that think gun's are for killing people and have no other reason for existence...
I respect that you want to fight and represent gunowners but Universities are almost universally considered liberal bastions.. You're behind enemy lines and surrounded :)

I'm a certified gun enthusiast (nut) and have been shooting for 32yrs, I'm 38 and have learned that the gun topic at certain places is good only for making yourself a target, schools and the workplace are at the top of the list..

If you're up for the fight and realize the potential consequences good for you!! The above advice is great, write everything down pick up a recorder and watch your back..

Also do you have a right to see you school personal file?? I'd imagine that finding out what kind of comment and info (if any) from this incident that are contained within would be a good thing to know..

Best Regards,

Son

P.S. A malicious anti-gun type person could easily photo-shop your photos and have you in ALOT trouble that could take ALONG time to straighten out.
 
mcooper,

Sounds like you have a sound course of action.

You mention Gene Taylor, he's a US rep correct? I'll let him know as well, but if you can give me more background info on him or why I should conatact him (he's not my rep, Pickering is), I'd greatly appreciate it.
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I mentioned Gene Taylor because he has been a strong supporter of gun rights in our state. He is the Beat 4 Representative.However, you meantioned Pickering. He's no slouch, either. I'd be on his phone soon as you can.



Sage, thank you for those kind words. :) The funny thing is that before I finished writing that, I finished an entire pot of coffee.



All the best my friends!


John
 
Another comment...I am an "honest to goodness, Jesus is Alive" preacher man (as someone PMed me). If I saw one of my HS or college-age youth having such pictures on his/her myspace (etc.) site, I would make *darn* sure to have a sit-down with him/her and just make sure everything is OK.

Why? The people in my congregation are part of my extended family. I care for all of them. If I see something "funny" going on, I try to check it out. Sometimes I'm sneaky - just talking gives me a feeling one way or the other. SOmetimes I'm flagrant - what the heck is going on? SOmetimes, I play devil's advocate, too. The point is if I see things that might be out of order, I try to be proactive. Last fall, I had a kid (whose parents are divorcing) post some red-flag stuff on her myspace site. While my gut said "this is because of the divorce," I followed up to make sure it wasn't something else, and it lets the kids know I care.

True story: a fellow pastor had a young man (I forget the age...let's say he was 18) in his congregation commit suicide. The kid was popular, well-known, and the hometown hero. Before long, there was a string of copy-cat suidices in town. If I could stop that kind of thing by being a little extra vigilent with my kids at church, watching myspace (which I do), etc., you bet I will.

I could criticize the assistant dean for his tact, but I find it hard to criticize his checking up on you, particularly in light of the past week. Like it or not, he was doing his job. He *has* to (try to) protect the whole student body. I mean no offense, but you put yourself on the front lines of the fight. Don't cry because you're catching it now. I think the advice others have given re. legal counsel, NRA, etc., is all well and good.

I'm a gun guy, too. I've got a whole closet full of guns...pistols, rifles & shotguns (and am planning on a Rock Island tactical in the near future). Folks at church know I am a gun entheusiast and frequently converse about guns. One of my best buddies is a cop and he & I frequently stand in the hall after service and talk shop. But I don't post pictures of me in the church directory with me packing my .357, .223., 12 gauge, and a couple cases of ammo while wearing camo and a cigar while dressed in a T-shirt that says, "Say your prayers and pass the ammo." [edit: I see your pics...not saying you were being this obnoxious...this is said to make a point]. Remember: a picture says a thousand words, but a thousand words are soon forgotten (trust me - I'm a preacher...I know how long words last :) )

Final point: My wife is a 6th grade teacher; I wish the law was such she could carry in school (whoops! Federal felony there...no thanks!!!). Yeah, ***sixth***graders worry me. If her principals DIDN"T pull a kid and/or talk to the kids parents who was posing with pics like that, I would be pounding on his door. As a parent, if such a thing were happening in my daughter's class, ditto.

That all said, good luck. Stay low & move fast.

Preacher Man
 
Preacher Man said:
I would make *darn* sure to have a sit-down with him/her and just make sure everything is OK.

Why? The people in my congregation are part of my extended family.
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In your line of work, and because of your "why" that seems appropriate. However, Mark pointed out that he is NOT enrolled in any of this professor's classes, and never has been. I barely have time to be doing my own work (and hanging out here :D ), much less doing web searches for students at my college to see if they have hold political opinions contrary to my own.
mcooper said:
I now feel like I'm in a hostile learning environment as this professor is part of my department.
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And here is the reason to pursue action. You have the same rights as any other student, despite your political beliefs. Have you ever talked about being a gun owner to your classmates? How else would this prof have known to "peruse" your web site? This prof went on a witch hunt, plain and simple.:fire: :fire:


Preacher Man said:
I could criticize the assistant dean for his tact, but I find it hard to criticize his checking up on you, particularly in light of the past week. Like it or not, he was doing his job.
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Yep. He had an issue brought to him by a faculty member (right or wrong). He had to follow up on this. Shucks, if the guy is a gunny, he's probably already had a chat with the prof about potential liability. If he is a good administrator, he's probably already had this chat.
 
since he did not say what he wanted, why are you all worried about it? find out what he wants first.
 
Mark, just an aside: You should post updates as new posts rather than going back and editing post #1. I just happened to scroll back to the first page and noticed you're updating there, but normally I would not have, and most people don't.

Good luck being thrown into the role of activist. As JWarren pointed out, you're there now, ready or not. Glad you have some representation.
 
MCooper, kicking these bastards in the teeth is an act of civic duty. I wish you all the best in making it happen.

And be thankful that you aren't attending UC Berkeley. If you think your bunch is bad, you would recoil in horror at the extremes of censorship (of any non-radical-left position) and brainwashing and communist agitation that are the norm on this campus. (My alma commie mater. Damn, glad those days are over).

:barf:
 
I agree with Preacher Man as far as the Associate Dean goes. In his position he pretty much doesn't have a choice but to follow up on the concerns voiced to him by the professor. He simply can't risk not following up, even if he doesn't believe there's a real threat.

The professor on the other hand is a different story. I find it interesting that a professor that you never met would be looking at your facebook page. I can only guess that it was some of your fellow students that brought it to the professor's attention, who inturn voiced his concern to the Associate Dean.

Regardless of where the complaint originated, though, I don't see much potential for legal retaliation at this point. It appears one or more people had concerns (rightly or wrongly) and those concerns were investigated and apparantly determined to be unfounded, since there was no disciplinary action taken. Unless they decide to discipline you or conduct a campaign of harassment based on the fact you're a gun owner, I'm just not seeing where you'd have a legal leg to stand on.

I do agree with the people who say you have to document everything, however. Just because there's not much of a legal case here at the moment, doesn't mean it won't progress into something more sinister. It would be very helpful to be prepared if that should happen.
 
Mark, document EVERYTHING. If you get pulled over, keep track. If you get followed by campus fuzz, document. If your professors say stuff to you, document it.
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+1 for that advice
Also, it's a good idea to call the NRA and ask for advice. +1 also for chatting with an attorney. Just remember they can get expensive.

You owe no-one an apology and you're about to tangle with people who might feel only police should own guns and grossly missinterpret the 2'nd ammendment. Also, familiarize yourself with your state constitution. Odds are it has something about the right to bear arms too. Luckily in PA it is even more clear than in the US Bill of Rights.

I would talk with the professor that turned you in. Be prepared for that person to try to get you on the defensive. If that happens smile and remind them that you would like to be treated with the same basic respect you show them.
 
Well, back in the 1950s, the gov't forced members of the Communist Party to carry cards. Eventually the law was struck down based on the idea that it violated thier constitutional right to freedom of association.

One might construe campus involvement issues in that light.
 
Since the original e-mail was so circumspect about what the meeting was about...I believe my response (to the e-mail) would have been "if you can't tell me what this is about....don't waste my time" and ignored the original e-mail.
As far as any apology to the Professor that turned you in...well, if an apology is to be given, it should have been given to you.
 
Personally I see no problem with your photos. Your finger was outside the trigger guard. The weapon was not pointed at anyone (that I can see). I saw no shrine to the head cheerleader or anything freaky like that. Maybe it's the state i live in (WV) but I had my high school graduation photos with an SKS with a folding stock and bayonet. No one batted an eye. Personally I don't feel quite right unless I've ruffled a few feathers in a day. Even better if they're supposed authority figures. Watch your back however. Nobody can twist the truth like the head honcho.
 
I think he did the right thing in going to see the associate dean. If he had declined, it would have sent a message that would have been mis-interpreted as possibly hostile. Instead, he went, discussed what in the gun-realm he was involved in, removed at least one person's immediate fears, and set himself up as a good guy. +1 on inviting the professor that tagged him to shoot. At the least he'll decline and you save that money on ammo. At best, he'll convert.
 
I hate to say this, but I don't think you will get anywhere with this, though you certainly were taken advantage off, disrespected as a law-abiding citizen and good person, and profiled in a prejudicial manner - however there is no legally actionable damage. Any judge out there will side with the university for taking a "pre-caution" (albeit a biased and prejudicial one) when the concern in the media with Cho has been that VA Tech did not take the actions it should have before the shooting. Personally, I don't think the ACLU or the NRA will touch this, but it does not hurt to ask. You were wronged, but the current political climate will allow for it, and nothing illegal happened to you.

Want to take some real action? Post the email of the dean and the professor here. That is how they will learn their lesson - by getting a lot of professional, well worded emails asking why they are biased, should all South Koreans be brought before the dean, etc. - but then that might get you in hot water too. I guess you have to ask yourself how much of a pro-rights activist you want to be.

Me, I keep it under the radar. I live in the suburbs of a big northeast city where gun control is, unfortunately, the politically leaning (thankfully the rest of PA and the General Assembly are very pro-rights). Realize that you are in college now, but by having pictures posted like that in the future, and if a co-worker were to run across them, a biased employer could use it to find other reasons to fire you. Unfortunately, that is the way it is in many parts of the country and with many people who are employers, and who happen to be narrow-minded and ignorant.
 
Gun Photos

I suggest replacing photos of posing with a gun to actual range pictures. There's kind of a mental difference between posing with a firearm inside a place where you aren't going to shoot as opposed to photos from a live fire session. Next time you go, get a friend, gear up, pull your ears down and put on your safety glasses and get some images. I think the "right" kind of photos, of friends and associates involved in the shooting sports are the message to send.

Good luck with your education. Great days and times in college. Wish I had shot more then.

You might check the CMP site for your state sanctioned organization. They might be good people to know, plus they shoot and have a juniors program.
 
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