The Decline of Gun Auction and Retail Sites

[Cosmoline]

I started buying and selling on gunbroker, gunsamerica, and to a lesser extent auction arms when they started cropping up in the early part of the decade. I remember getting some phenomenal deals on firearms, almost all sold by private sellers in various parts of the country. Gunsamerica in particular was dominated by private sellers and was something of a big BBS for gun sales. But over the past three years or so I've noticed a slow and steady decline in the number of deals and in the number of private sellers on these sites. They seem to be dominated both locally and nationally by commercial vendors who see the sites as a cheap way of hawking stuff that won't move off the retail shelves. Locally, for example, I've noticed one or two retailers along with a couple of low level FFL's have basically taken over all the listings on AA and GA. And the number of listings has dropped off dramatically. Since its revamp, GA is turning into a real ghost town. All of them have suffered from hucksterism, misrepresentation and outright fraud. It's getting as bad as ebay at times. I guess if you want to buy a brand new firearm at 10% over cost or something it's still a good deal, but for bargain hunting and C&R's the places to go are the remaining swap and sell forums on non-commercial internet sites.

In a way, it's following the pattern of gunshows, where the private sellers were slowly but surely pressured out by liability concerns and costs and the commercial vendors swung in with higher and higher prices. But maybe I'm being too pessimistic. Is there a silver lining? Are folks still getting good deals on the sites?

 

[straightShot]

All of them have suffered from hucksterism, misrepresentation and outright fraud. It's getting as bad as ebay at times.

Ebay has to be worse. You can't even sell guns on ebay...

 

[Dave Dembinski]

I think you hit the nail on the head, Cosmo. If I wanted to pay too much for a gun there's plenty of places to do so in town, and I don't have to fool with shipping and an extra FFL. There are good dealers and people to buy from online, just not at the auction sites.

 

[JohnBT]

My personal opinion is that all the good used guns have been bought and finding a deal on an auction site or at a gun show is a minor miracle. Now it seems it takes a death, divorce or bankruptcy to get a deal and it isn't on line. Or just running across someone who is bored with their gun and wants something new.

Too much money chasing too few good guns.

John

 

[GILROY]

I would like to see them ban dealers from pandering their new guns there. I can find new at local storefronts. Maybe limit the number of active listings per seller to 5 or 10 guns. Used guns from dealers and private sellers only. That would clean things up considerably and generate more interesting ads.

 

[Black Adder LXX]

I guess the only good deals left are in the classifieds in boards like these.

 

[BigRobT]

I remember when I first stumbled across gunbroker. I found many a deal on guns from private parties. Far more deals than I ever had the money for!! I've been browsing them off and on over the last couple of years and I will have to agree that the vendors and commercial gun stores have taken over. The private party deals are still there, but one has to dig REALLY deep to find them. Too bad that there isn't a way for any of those sites to make a sub-site/ sub-category for private party only sellers.

 

[Ranger 40]

Cosmo you are dead on. Its too bad to see these things go away. The Gun Shows were are political gatherings. Every week-end all over the US Gun folks would gather. It was like town hall meetings. We would meet exchange ideas Etc. with other non-dealers.
Now they are just a big Flea Market run by a lot of dealers out to make a buck. Most could care less about gun politics or helping new shooters get stared. If they can't sell guns, its Hot Sauce, Jerky, or Plastic Blowguns.

 

[deadin]

How about excluding anything currently in production from gunshows? Or at least anything NIB.

 

[taliv]

ironically, if you talk to the gun SELLERS (on both the internet and at gunshows), they're all complaining too about how you can't make a living doing that anymore because people aren't willing to pay for anything and want to buy stuff for less than wholesale.

 

[0007]

A couple of times I tried to get some info regarding a gun I wanted to by from the supposed seller(s) on GA . Never heard anything back.

 

[Dravur]

and now for something completely different....

Now they are just a big Flea Market run by a lot of dealers out to make a buck.

so sorry... I forgot, I buy my table at the shows so that I can give things away.... Of course I am out to make a buck. That is how business works. I don't waste a few weekends a year to make sure to lose money.

now, I only deal in gun gear and guns. I know what I paid for them and I know what I need to get out of them. I find deals on used guns wherever I can and I make a few bucks on that deal. If I deal in new guns, I have to make a few buckks on that as well.

Now, here is the problem. If your table is made up of just guns, you have to mark them up high enough to recoup your costs and make some coin. If you are making only 10% on a gun, you need to sell alot to make the rent. The real money is in the accessories, where you can pull in about 30%.

Now, having ranted, let me tell you about the people that you deal with at gun shows. The absolute worst is the guy who wants to haggle with you on every little detail. No, I dont want to give away that gun, No, I dont want to pay for your background check. I price the guns fairly. If you don't like it, someone else will. Only a few of the people in the show are people who actually came looking for a gun. They buy stuff and are no hassle. Get us more of those kind of guys as customers and you will get a better gun show.

 

[trueblue1776]

Auction sites are worthless, except for the rarities. I just use the auction sites to see what the low ball is on a new gun, then I'll go to my dealer and offer him what it would cost to buy, ship, and transfer, that way we both get a good deal. I'd rather a local guy get my money than UPS.

 

[jerkface11]

Gunbrokers problem is it's FREE to re-list an item so when something a dealer has doesn't sell he just re-lists it till some idiot pays $50 over MSRP for it instead of either giving up or lowering the price.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

I think the problem is dealers using the sites as storefronts to sell their NIB or overpriced used guns for the same price you'd pay if you'd walk into their store (or more). You have to wade through thousands of those to find the one guy or gal cleaning out their closet. Maybe they could make a seperate section for dealers and one for private party.
Ebay is practically the TSA of auction sites with their restrictions.

 

[asknight]

First, let me be honest about the way I do business. I don't haggle. I look at the price tag and if I disagree, I will move on. If you're too ashamed to hang a price tag, I move on.

With that said, Dravur, trust me when I say that I understand your plight. But let me explain what the other dealers are doing around your table that is tainting the waters for all of us.

Just this past weekend I spent some time at the gun show in Little Rock, AR. Now this was a relatively large show with 400+ tables with usually less than 75 being non-gun related (airsoft, jerky, jewelry, etc). There were many typical gunshow items such as random Mausers, Mosin Nagants, obscure double barrel shotguns, as well as tons of dealers with NIB items. Very few had price tags attached. After waiting on the dealer to finish talking to the other 5 people at the table (undoubtedly asking for prices) it was my turn to ask the price on the wares I was interested in... I kid you not that the average asking price for a beat to hell Steyr M95, Mosin Nagant, SKS, Turk, Czech, German, or Argentine Mauser was $425 and up!

Needless to say, I wished the dealer luck at getting that price and moved on to the next table, for a repeat of the same thing. Granted, not all dealers were trying to do business in this way, but the ones with the items I was interested in seemed to be. Seems the guys with tables full of NIB Glocks and Smith & Wessons had their prices clearly marked.

All of this gave me an idea. I had brought a few Mausers of my own to dispose of, but I wanted to walk around and get a feel for the general mood of buyers before I possibly wasted my time hawking my wares if no one was in a buying mood. I went out to the truck and got my Argentine 1891, Turk '38, and Czech VZ-24 which are in like condition as the ones with asking prices of $425+ and went back in to see the dealers.

When I walked up the dealers were ecstatic. After they looked each one over for a few minutes, I was offered $200. I was a little confused because I wasn't expecting that much per rifle but could understand it due to what they were asking for theirs. After all, they were offering me 50% of what they were going to sell it for. Understand how I felt when the dealer clarified that the offer was $200 for all three, not each!

Haha, I don't think so, buddy!

And for you guys wondering what happened to all of the desirable S&W 696 .44SPL revolvers, there was a guy there with four of them. His asking price was $800 for the scratched up one with cracked Pachmayer grips and excessive end-shake. The others were considerably more.

Cosmoline, I'm in full agreement with you. The only deals I've been able to find, and honest people to buy from, has been on the BST portion of this site, and the equipment exchange on one other site. Even with the occasional fraudster on these two sites, it's still way less of a chance for being defrauded than it is at a local gun show!

 

[ConfuseUs]

It's not only the dealers trying to move the slow moving out the door but also the winner's curse that has made it hard to find deals on the auction sites. The winner's curse afflicts anyone who buys at auction: In order to outbid the competition you most likely wind up paying more than the actual value of the item in question. It doesn't help that we have better access to price information than ever before either, so market inefficiencies are much smaller and harder to find than before.

Edit: That's also why it's getting tough to make money as a dealer as well: better information is shrinking the spread between dealer cost and retail price.

 

[MechAg94]

The stuff above are some of the main reasons why I have bought very few used guns. Only a couple at gun shows. The only rifles I see sold differently are the SKS's and mosin nagant rifles. They are always in crates and sold for a fixed price. I think gun show dealers must think I look gullible or rich or something. If there is no price on a rifle, I assume that is because they want too much for it. I don't think I have ever been pleasantly surprised by a price on an unmarked gun. Well once I was surprised and it turned out the gun had a broken part.

The other problem with used guns is that many are collectors selling some super wiz bang variant 1964 1/2 S&W pistol that is worth 50% more than normal pistols even though it looks exactly the same. Or they have done some run of the mill upgrades and bump the price up too high.

The only guy I know that still hunts for deals at shows only goes to the biggest shows and hangs out outside catching people walking in or walking around. He doesn't even look at the tables except to compare prices.

 

[deadin]

I've seen sellers that have ridiculous prices on their wares explain that it's just a haggle starting price and they'll take offers. I figure that if they've got 800 on something I might consider at 400, we are just too far apart for me to waste either of our times haggling over and I move on.

 

[heypete]

I've sold a gun or two on GunsAmerica, and it's been a pleasant experience (including the amusing part with the Nigerian scammer who was trying to scam me out of money and guns -- I forwarded all the communications to the ATF).

But those were just sales from my personal collection, not commercial sales.

I'd love for local dealers to put up their inventory and pricing online, allowing me to pay online then come by the shop to do the paperwork and pick up the gun. I really like places like TopGlock.com which show you the final price (which is usually pretty good) and the shipping costs. I have a local Class II manufacturer who charges $20 for transfers (he doesn't keep any inventory) so it works out well for me when I'm buying stuff of known quality.

I just wish the auction sites and whatnot would be limited to individual sellers, or occasional liquidation sales by dealers.

 

[Pweller]

I think that much of the problem is due to the apparently low margins on guns (I have heard 10% - 20%, but I am not in the business).

I am in a jewelry-related business, and if the dealer can't double the price of your item they are immediately not interested. Some people call this a 50% margin, that is, 50% of the sell price is dealer profit, other people call it 100% referring to the percent mark-up from the dealer - either way it's a lot more than the gun margins.

Really, to run a profitable and strong business you need to (at least) double the price of whatever it is that you're selling. I would suspect that the gun business is pretty well contaminated now by people who don't know how to run a business, and so it has become mostly a catch-22 (you can't exist at 10%-20% margins, but you can't sell anything if you try to charge more than that either).

I always say that a good profit margin is the foundation to any business. If it's not there, there's essentially no chance of success. And, all of these other problems just trickle down from there.

 

[asknight]

Really, to run a profitable and strong business you need to (at least) double the price of whatever it is that you're selling.

Not if you offer any services. Billable services (labor) is where the real money is. That's the problem with all the gun "dealers" now days. They offer zero services, only reselling a product. Then they get mad when you bypass the middle man (the dealer) and buy it direct from a wholesaler. It's hard to find a dealer that will even mount a scope and bore sight it. Why pay the dealer's 40-100% mark up when there are no services attached?

If you have a problem, the best you can hope for is that they'll offer to send it back to the manufacturer on your dime. Then the wait is on for something you already paid for.

It's gotten to the point where I buy through Davidson's if I'm looking for NIB merchandise, as they don't require you to dicker at all if you have a problem. They replace the item, on their dime, with overnight delivery. If you're still not happy, no questions refund. Their prices (to your dealers door) are better than I've seen on many local dealers' shelf.

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

I don't mind paying the MSRP on a gun I am interested in but not 10-25% over MSRP which most the auction guns are priced. The MSRP of a gun is supposer to be the high retail price of a gun that includes shipping and dealer profit built in, not the starting point to add more costs to.

 

[HankB]

I started buying and selling on gunbroker, gunsamerica, and to a lesser extent auction arms . . . I remember getting some phenomenal deals . . . over the past three years or so I've noticed a slow and steady decline in the number of deals and in the number of private sellers on these sites. They seem to be dominated both locally and nationally by commercial vendors . . .

Same story with gun shows. I noticed this first when I was living in PROM (People's Republic of Minnesota) but it was almost like the "good old days" when I reached Texas . . . sadly, gun shows here have declined just like those up in Yankeeland.

 

[TEDDY]

when I had my FFL difference was 10/15% looooog time ago.now it looks like 100%.I have dealer friend who tells me prices and I get the old dealer cat.I think the trouble in gun shows are cost of table,license fees,ect.also private parties many times are excluded.some states private parties have to do same as FFL.