The fallacy of the 1-1 1/2 MOA hunting rifle

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dfaugh

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Just something I've been thinking about, reading lots of threads on this and other boards.

I (and you) keep seeing alot of people that say that a gun that shoots 1 MOA or 1 1/2 MOA is perfectly adequate for hunting most large game. I agree with this---but only up to a certain point.

Certainly, if you limit your shots to relatively short range, this is "good enough". so out to maybe 200 yards, this is just fine. But, you hear more and more about people taking shots over 300 yards.

Now, in my experience a gun that shoots 1 MOA off the bench, under ideal conditions translates to at LEAST 2-3 MOA under "field conditons". It's rare that you get the chance to "set up" with a really steady rest, and a "comfortable" shooting position. Since I don't want to wound any game animal, I either use a really accurate (like 1/2 MOA) or I limit my shots to "sure things" and reduced range.

Does any one else feel the same way?
 
I haven't seen many hunting rifles that can shoot 1/2 MOA consistently. The only rifles I've seen shoot like that were benchrest or heavy barreled varmint rifles that you normally wouldn't carry around out in the field. I think that a 1-1 1/2 MOA rifle used with some kind of field rest would more than adequate for most hunting scenarios provided that the shooter do his part.
 
I want all my hunting rifles to do 1 MOA or better from the bench .That measures the rifle/ammo combination. ..However the range limits for the hunter are the farthest you can consistantly hit the vitals [10" circle for a deer] under field conditions.
 
A rifle and shooter combo that can keep 4 MOA is plenty good for hunting big game.

If you can keep 4 MOA, that means you can reliably hit something slightly larger than a regulation basketball at about 300 yards.

On true "big game" an area basketball size or so is plenty big to cover the heart and lung vitals area.

Of course, in true hunting situations, you are looking at shots a lot closer than 300 yards. Not many hunting situations on "big game" call for shots much beyond that.....Mountain Sheep hunting sometimes does.

Even most elk are taken a lot closer than 300.

hillbilly
 
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My father and my uncle joined the NRA in the late 1930s. In 1950 I discovered this accumulation of The American Rifleman and away I went, reading and drooling over the wonders therein. Kept on reading through the years.

A generality of pre-1960: Any rifle that would stay inside of two MOA for a five-shot group was declared "fine for deer hunting". That included the Model 70.

Hokay. Fast forward into the 1960s/1970s and the upgrading of the precision of machine tools. My own discovery was that one MOA was not all that difficult to achieve. I had several rifles that easily stayed inside an inch at my 100-yard range.

As I kept on reloading and testing various powder/bullet combinations, it occurred to me that since a hunter rarely shoots more than once or twice at a deer, a three-shot group provides as much useful information as five- or ten-shot groups do.

The next thing that struggled into my little peabrain was that most of the time I only shot once. What then seemed important was whether or not the first shot from a cold barrel went to the same place the next time around as it had previously done.

Now, I'll agree with anybody that benchresting (for a hunter) is only for information about a particular package: Rifle, sights, ammo. And, I'm in accord with those who have some sort of personal standard for skill in field conditions.

But it's hard in today's world to find a bolt-action rifle that won't stay right at one MOA. Half-MOA with hunting crosshairs in a scope of no more than 9X is more problematical.

I will say that the darned few times I've ever missed a deer, it wasn't the rifle's fault. :)

Art
 
Well, think of it this way. If your rifle is a 1 MOA gun with the load you are using, that means that with a solid rest (the key to hits at long ranges) the gun is capable of placing that bullet within 2 inches of its POA at 400 yards. Just how is the gun not accurate enough? The shooter might not be accurate enough, but 1 moa is probably excessive accuracy, but it's obtainable in a hunting rifle and 1/2 moa is not, not easily anyway with a light hunting rifle. I have one rifle that will shoot 3/4 moa. Took a lot of work and judicious handloading to get that out of it, though. Three of my rifles will shoot 1 moa. Also, forget about hot barrels. The first shot is the only one that counts in the field on big game, not talkin' prairie dogs here.

What I see as the limit of range is exterior ballistics and range determination. I bought a 400 yard laser range finder because I'm not going to shoot over 350 yards at an animal, maybe 400 with a dead calm wind. Beyond that, my cartridges, including the 7 mag, start to have excessive drop. Not only that, but winds will shorten my effective range dramatically. I won't shoot over about 250 yards in a high wind. Then, if you're shooting up or down hill, you have to account for that. There are more limiting factors involved in how far I'll shoot at an animal than just the accuracy of the gun. But, suffice to say that 1moa is more than accurate enough for any range and any shot I'll take on a deer sized animal with my rifles.
 
If you continually find yourself taking shots at animals past 200 yards I think it is time to review a few hunting facts and procedures.

1. The Wind. Wind on back, bad. Wind on face, good.

2. Noise. Lots of noise, bad. Little bit of noise, better. No noise, good.

3. Sun. Sun at back, good. Sun in face, bad.

4. Spotting. Spotting animal before it spots you, good. Animal spots you before you see it, bad

5. Shot choice. Purposely choosing to take long range shot, BAD. Getting as close as possible, good.

6. Road hunting. Driving truck with open headers blasting Guns & Roses on stereo, bad. Driving quiet truck to high spot to walk and spot good.

7. Stalking. Stalking close to animal in stealthy fashion, good. Running towards animal waving arms and screaming ROCK & ROLL BABY!! Bad.

These are just a few basic procedures that will help you keep those shot distances to a realistic minimum. ;)

There are plenty of "hunters" in America who claim to make super long shots. There a few who can do it with proper training, equipment and practice. Of the claimers and the doers there are always lots of missed shots and wounded animals you don't get to hear about.

I find that bragging about the distance of shot should be of how close I was able to get rather than how far away I was A.K.A the long distance shooter is also often a lousy hunter.

I do however appreciate that we are bagging on Weatherby and their ridiculous 1.5" guarantee whether intended or not .:D :evil:
 
Amen to what El Tejon, Art, and H&H said.
I've been hunting for almost 4 decades and I've taken very few shots where the difference between .5 or 1 or 2 MOA would make any difference.
I've shot coyotes and prairie dogs at some ridiculous ranges but that doesn't count, does it?
I've shot one whitetail with a .300 mag at 300 yards under ideal field conditions, and one pronghorn at 250 yards with a .243. most everything else I shot at 150 yards or less.
Like Art, I've spent enough time with my rifles and loads that I know just what to expect from that first shot.
 
All this is true, but you seem to be taking alot of the joy away, for me anyway. I strive to find .5s for all my rifles, expecially distance guns. I enjoy shooting at extended ranges, does that meke me less of a hunter? I also bow hunt and pistol hunt. I realize .5 is not absolutely necessary and none of the critters in the freezer noticed the difference. Just seems like yall are bagging on the guys who wanna shoot the most accurately they can.
~z
 
There is the hunter in me and then there is the rifleman. Both seem to say 1 moa is excessive, but easily attained accuracy from a good, affordable, hunting rifle.:D I know folks who glass bed, free float, handload, this and that for that half MOA. Hey, that's their hobby! I ain't knockin' it. Comes in handy at club rifle bench rest matches. But, out hunting, I don't sweat that my rifle will only shoot half as accurate at 1 moa. That's more accuracy than I can possibly use at the ranges which I'm going to shoot at an animal. I owe it to the game to make a clean, one shot kill. I simply cannot stretch range past 350 yards on my rifles and be assured of that even in perfect conditoins. I've killed one deer, a mulie, across a canyon at 350, and a coyote at closer to 400, but I, too, don't think I can remember ever killing a deer or hog at much over 150 yards other than those two animals. Actually, I've made some fantastic shots on running game out to 50 yards off hand I'm more proud of than that 350 yard mulie. That one was calculated and under almost perfect wind conditions. However, I lost a hog running like that, hit him too far back. I've killed a few deer like that, but prefer to spot/stalk and shoot at standing animals. I don't do much still hunting anymore. It's fun, but there's just too much chance of crippling an animal. That's how I feel about shooting out at 400 yards, too much chance of crippling an animal. I'm a danged good shot (no brag, been shooting since I was six and I'm 53 now), don't misunderstand, but I know the limits under less than perfect conditions. I've done enough shooting to know that. I've always considered myself a rifleman first and foremost, a pistoleer second, and a shotgunner third, though I hunt more water fowl than anything and I shoot more handguns than rifles. Go figure. LOL But, I grew up as a kid shooting squirrel with a .22 and learned rifle marksmanship first.
 
~Z, I guess I spent over 20 years messin' with loads and bedding and all that, working on the reliable 1/2 MOA and trying for the one-hole groups. That's half the fun of having a rifle! I still play around with it although I've gotten a bit lazy in my old age, but that's a different story.

And one thing about me taking after my father and taking longer shots than most guys is a wee tad of an ego thing: "Hey, beat that!" I'm not as good as he was, so I don't have a bunch of witnessed 500-yarders, or one-shot kills on running deer at 200 and 300 yards--but I haven't done badly. :)

Still, the most fun with Bambi is getting close enough use a rock. :D Counting coup, as it were. I've managed to get a few shots inside of 30 yards. Using a rifle is almost an insult.

Art
 
/*It's rare that you get the chance to "set up" with a really steady rest, and a "comfortable" shooting position.*/

Then the answer wouldn't seem to be a more accurate rifle, but a more accurate rifleman in the field. Very few hunters seem to get off the bench and put away the sandbags and practice shooting in the various positions they will be using in the field. Thus, there sub MOA rifle won't even hit the paper at 100 yards when held offhand.

I would think it would pay bigger dividends to use the time, ammo, and money to practice hitting a paper plate offhand at 100 yards (and then 200 yards) every time than shrink groups to below MOA. Prairied Dog hunting is an exception, it is more like benchrest shooting, and a sub MOA gun does make a difference there.

Of course, if time, ammo, and money are not limiting factors, then get a .5 MOA rifle and load, then practice until you can hit everything standing, sitting, kneeling, and prone.:)
 
the "fallacy" isn't in the rifle. it's in the people who go buy a sako or tikka thinking they've got a 1/2 minute rifle, and then put 3 minute Wallyworld ammo through it.
 
dfaugh-

If you find that your field accuracy with a 1/2 MOA rifle is 2-3 MOA at best (sounds realistic; many people aren't so realistic:) ), then your field accuracy with a 1.5 MOA rifle/load combo will be 3-4.5 MOA, or with a 1 MOA setup it would be 2.5-3.5 MOA.

If 1.5-2.5 MOA of your field accuracy comes from factors OTHER than the rifle's inherent accuracy, then quite frankly, it just won't make a huge difference if you have a 1/2 MOA rifle or a 1 MOA rifle when you're hunting big game.

The error numbers add, rather than multiply, like .5 MOA for rifle/load + 2 MOA for unsteady rest + 1 MOA for wind. Here are some scenarios.

At the range, in a gun vise, the rifle shoots 1/2 MOA groups. I belong to a club with a 100 yard indoor range, so I'm going to say there's no wind and that the temperature is around 70 degrees Fahrenheit. These are ideal conditions for determining inherent accuracy.

Now, you take that gun outside. You use a big tree for a rest. You are a very skilled shooter with ice in your veins. Add 1 MOA over the gun vise.

There's a shifting breeze. Add 1 MOA for that.

You're up to at LEAST 2.5 MOA, in a pretty ideal hunting situation.


Okay, now you're shooting offhand, standing up, looking over a ridgeline down at a deer. Add 5 MOA or more for standing offhand shooting. There's a shifting breeze. Add 1 MOA for good measure. Total? 6.5 MOA for your 1/2 MOA rifle. If you get a 1.5 MOA rifle, that goes up to 7.5 MOA. That's not much difference.

Now say you're a real person, and you're adrenaline-pumped because you have a 10-point buck in your crosshairs. Your heart is pounding. There's a 10 MPH breeze. You don't know exactly how far away the deer is, but you're guessing it's around 175 yards, give or take 50 (which means it could be 75-275, really). You are leaning against a boulder, trying to steady your rifle in a position you didn't even know your body could assume. Your scope has an adjustable objective, but hell, you don't even know exactly how far the deer is from you anyway, so parallax is an issue, especially in the odd position you're in against that boulder. What kind of practical accuracy can you expect, really? 5 MOA? Really? 10? Hopefully better than 10, just for an ethical shot at big game.

Now, that last scenario should demonstrate why for many, maybe for most, big game hunters, the difference between a 1/2, a 1 and a 1.5 MOA rifle doesn't mean diddlysquat, because other factors account for 95% of your shot's accuracy or lack thereof! (And it shows why shots over 300 yards are not ethical for many hunters).
 
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What about the loss of accuracy caused by taking gun in and out of truck,car,boat, hauling up & down climbing stand, weather conditions, ect, just all the stuff that a gun goes through to get that shot? I took out my Marlin 336 30-30 last week, had killed three deer last season with three shots(two standing), and couldn't hit the 12X12" target at 100 yds. I had banged the scope somehow toward the end of season. I am very careful with it. I don't expect MOA from a gun I stalk and stand hunt with. I want a first shot kill from an off hand position at an animal approaching at the wrong angle I planned for. I fired from a bench rest and put five rounds repeatedly in a 2" hole at 100 yds after resighting it. Won't be able to do that from a climbing stand 30' up in twenty degree weather after six hours waiting.

rk
 
In most hunting situations where one is gonna make a 300+ yard shot one has plenty of time to get into a comfortable and steady shooting position before making the shot. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that a 1-1 1/2 MOA rifle is fine for long range big game hunting.

I do not consider a heavy barreled bench rest rifle a hunting rifle, I don;t care how it shoots.
 
Ever notice that people brag about the long shot they made 5 minutes after the season opened? I'd hate that. The longest shot I ever took was 150 yds. I thought he was about 100 yds away since he looked pretty big. I like getting them in close, which takes a couple of days. Otherwise your hunt is over after only just getting started. What fun is it to spend all year getting ready and then "limit out" in the first hour? All you can do then is sit around the lodge drinking beer, eating chips, smoking nasty cigars your wife won't allow at home, eating greasy food and slim Jims that are bad for you, playing cards, ..............hmmm...maybe getting the deer first thing does have some advantages.:scrutiny:
 
Well, I usually only shoot one a day. We can shoot five here in this county. :D

Long shots are more common out west or pronghorn hunting, but the issue is still to get close as you can. If you're stalkin' and know you can get closer....get closer! Heck, down here, I hunt from stands with rifle rests overlooking feeders. That's why I do more and more pistol hunting. Rifles just seem like overkill, too bloomin' easy.
 
~z,

First of all we can't take your joy away. These are just a bunch of opinions from people you don't even know. You are your own man, do as you like. It's a free country.

Second please don't misunderstand me. I am rifleman and an accuracy freak. I love a good accurate rifle. But that is no excuse to go out and plink at animals at long range just because I can. And I do have the ability to do so. But there is a huge difference between hunting and just shooting stuff at long range.

The joy in hunting to me is in the stalk and getting visceral and getting close as possible. I've seen to many long range heroes wound and miss game because they don't really have any concept about long range shooting.

Here are a couple of things most long range wanna be's don't understand. It doesn't matter if you are shooting the most accurate 1/4" rifle on the planet with the best optics money can buy in the most fire breathing caliber produced.

If you don't know your range within 5 yards past about 420 yards you are pissing in the wind. If you can't dope the wind to within several KTS at long range you are pissing in the wind. If the temperature has drastically changed or the altitude has drastically changed and you haven't rezeroed for it your throwing night base balls. Super long range shooting is a science that can only be done with proper equipment and most important training.

If you want to shoot critters at long range that is your business. But I find the premise that a 1.5 moa hunting rifle is a fallacy to be incorrect. Even if we are bagging on Weatherby just a little.:D
 
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Oldnamvet, you need to be hunting in Alabama and you wouldn't have to worry about that sort of thing. We can hunt from Oct 15 to Jan 31 and we can take 2 deer per day, one of which can be an antlered buck.THat is 109 days which equates to 218 deer per year. Think you can handle that? Thats a lot of back straps.
 
In twenty years of hunting,

I've never shot a deer over 200 yards. I've never seen anyone else shoot one over about 250 yards. Even a 2 MOA rifle puts me at 4 inch groups at 200. Plenty for deer. BTW, I use a .308 that is a sub MOA rifle with handloads. Yes, it's nice to have and it's a confidence booster, but it's not necessary. I have a good friend who takes deer every year in S.C. with a .30 carbine. Not exactly a tack-driver, that.
 
H&H, yea, no one is taking my joy, it is still there. And as far as long pokes go, you are 100% correct. My pack contains a Leica 1200, a Kestrel wind meter, and a decent spotting scope/ tripod. I practice A LOT. Cant tell you how many rocks I have made smaller. I shoot my distance guns at 25yd increments from 300 to 1000yds and keep very detailed records. I have log books based in temp as well, the one variable I have not been able to document is elevation changes since I do the vast majority of my range work near home. Wind is always the kicker, especially in broken terrain. I just read the meter at my location and watch for clues as to what the wind is doing along my bullets path and compensate as best I can. I love the long shot, equally I love the upclose and personal, hence the bow and pistol hunting. I generally “hunt” for deer, however hogs and coyotes I “shoot”.
Reguardless of the situation, I want to know I'm running an accurate system, that way the error is mine, not the equipments. And as usual, know your limitations
~z
 
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