The fallacy of the 1-1 1/2 MOA hunting rifle

[Matt G]

I've got a .35 Whelen sporter that I probably can't break 2 MOA with, off of sandbags with neck-sized weighed handloads. It's a 2.5 MOA rifle, for the most part. But I'll take it anywhere, with its handy sights, sling, and comfy stock. I've killed a running deer with it, and I'll kill more in the future. Only caveat? I won't shoot at anything beyond 200 yards. This doesn't feel like much of a drawback.

A dozen years ago or so, I was doing a lot of hunting on the edges of a one section winter wheat field. After having dropped a buck with a rather long shot (for me) of 300 yards with a .257, I saved up and got me a Sendero in .300 Win Mag, to reach those quarter-mile bucks. I found that I could drive my hottest 180g loads (3100 mv) into about 3/4 MOA.
Problem was, I grew up. 9 years later, I hadn't shot a single deer with it beyond 100 yards or so. I sold it to a friend of the family 6 months ago.


I completely agree that a 1MOA rifle tends to turn into a 3 MOA rifle in the field. So too does my highly practical 2.5 MOA rifle. Huh.

 

[Dr.Rob]

I've killed more antelope than I can easily count with a 1 moa rifle before I bought a rifle that can do .5 moa on a good day. I practiced a lot too.

400 yards is a long way for me, but it's a shot I've made.

Most antelope I've killed have been within 150 yards. But stalking for wary bucks can mean longer shots.

Most shots I've had at elk have been within 50 yards. Iron sights and a 5 moa rifle would have been fine.

It depends on the game, and the hunter. Accurate rifles are certainly interesting, but a good hunter knows his limits and may just surprise the 'gearhead.'

 

[Oldnamvet]

Bigjack,
That is just plain not fair! We have more than 60,000 car/deer accidents a year in Michigan but there are still a very loud minority wanting to limit the hunting for deer even further. We might run out! This year I am going for pheasants instead. We get to shoot more of them.

 

[BIGJACK]

You need to unit and work with (worry the crap out of um) the Conservation department and legislature to get the seasons and limits opened up.

Bad part about Alabama and some of the other very liberal souther states is that they have had it so go for so long that now some of the dam hunters are trying to get it pinched back to "increase" the size of the deer at a time when we are paying professional "hunters' to come in and thin the herd. Does that make any since to anybody???? :banghead:

 

[ArmedBear]

I shoot my distance guns at 25yd increments from 300 to 1000yds and keep very detailed records.

If you do that, then you can make use of a really accurate, high-end rifle!

I don't do that. Unless something in my life changes dramatically, I won't do that. For me, the 1 MOA I can get from my .30-'06 is more than plenty.

It varies from person to person.

 

[bowfin]

/*I've never shot a deer over 200 yards. I've never seen anyone else shoot one over about 250 yards.*/

What states have you deer hunted?

 

[bowfin]

/* Heck, down here, I hunt from stands with rifle rests overlooking feeders. That's why I do more and more pistol hunting. Rifles just seem like overkill, too bloomin' easy.*/

Personal opinion, but maybe you should forgo the treestands, rifle rests, and feeders, rather than the rifle, if it is "too bloomin' easy.

In Nebraska, it is illegal to hunt within 200 yards of a feeder or bait station (including salt and mineral blocks), and if you are going to hunt where one had previously been, it must be removed 60 days prior to the location being hunted.

 

[ArmedBear]

bowfin, some places have a whole lot of these things called "trees", and these other things called "hills."

 

[1911 guy]

200 yard deer.

I'm the one who said I've never shot a deer over 200 or seen one shot over 250. I hunt West Virginia. For deer anyway, small game here in Ohio.

There are folks out there who can and do make genuine long shots, some frequent this and other shooting boards. Most hunters, however, tend to greatly overestimate range. I bow hunt a lot and most folks can't accurately judge distances of 50 yards or less. The guy at the gunshop claiming a 300 yard shot really believes that, but pacing or a rangefinder would likely reveal a 150-175 yard shot.

This is revealed in a lot of game "autopsies". Bullet impact is usually higher than ideal because the shooter compensates for distance that isn't really there.

An additional disclaimer, deer hunting isn't antelope hunting where 200-400 yard shots aren't out of the ordinary.

 

[CNYCacher]

When you guys say your rifle is "within 1 MOA" are you talking about all the shots are within 1 MOA of your point of aim, or is the entire group within 1 MOA of itself?

Radius or diameter?

example: 100 yard range, your 1MAO rifle puts all the shots within 1 inch of the bullseye, for a 2-inch group, or are they all in a one-inch group?

 

[bowfin]

/*some places have a whole lot of these things called "trees", and these other things called "hills."*/

I've seen a few of those trees myself while out hunting, and probably more hills than I cared to see. I will have to say I have welcomed the sight of a hill or two, it meant I was finally out of the canyon.

However, there have been recorded cases of hunters taking deer in amongst trees and at the bottoms or tops of hills while standing on firm ground. I have even done it myself a time or two

I have no problems with people hunting out of treestands, but since it was offered that it made it "too bloomin easy" I made the obvious suggestion to climb down from them and get away from the feeders.

Myself, I hope to go afield with a shotgun and slugs this year and leave the rifles at home, just to try something new and different, and hopefully a little more exciting

 

[CNYCacher]

Myself, I hope to go afield with a shotgun and slugs this year and leave the rifles at home, just to try something new and different, and hopefully a little more exciting

That's how we have to do it in my neck of the woods (unless you want to shoot bow or muzzleloader).

 

[birddog]

I've never shot a deer over 200 yards. I've never seen anyone else shoot one over about 250 yards. Even a 2 MOA rifle puts me at 4 inch groups at 200.

Agreed. I know that where we hunt in the northeast is not the same as the west, but my two longest shots out of the 50 or so deer I've killed, have been around 130 and 150 yards. And they seemed really.far.away. I cut my teeth bowhunting, and enjoy those 5 and 10 yard shots. During gun season, if I can't get within 100 or so yards of a deer, I don't feel like I'm doing my job as a hunter.

All that having been said, you accuracy-freak, long-range guys amaze me with your abilities. If my '06 is in a 3 inch group at 100, I'm pretty happy.

 

[BIGJACK]

When you guys say your rifle is "within 1 MOA" are you talking about all the shots are within 1 MOA of your point of aim, or is the entire group within 1 MOA of itself?

Radius or diameter?

When you say MOA it is automatically understood to be center to center of the group of the bullet holes. Any one means anything else they should so note.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Here is another news flash,

Just because a gun shoots 2 MOA at 100 yards does NOT mean that said rifle will shoot 4 " @ 200, 8" @ 400 so on and so forth. I've found that many 2" rifles will shoot 3 " @ 300 and 3 or 4" @ 400 ETC.

Seldom ,in fact rarely, is the group spread of a particular load and rifle linear as the gun rags would have you believe.

I've seen a few specimens that will shoot tighter @ 300 yards than they will at 100.

Is there something to the myth of stabilization @ range? I think there may be.

 

[BIGJACK]

MORE TIN FOIL PLEASE!!!!!!

 

[BIGJACK]

MORE TIN FOIL PLEASE!!!!!!

 

[wanderinwalker]

Is there something to the myth of stabilization @ range? I think there may be.

Yes, there may be. AR-15 shooters in Highpower note it all of the time. 80gr bullets won't shoot as well MOA-wise at 200 yards or closer, normally, as they do at 300 yards and farther. A 1-minute 600 load may look like a 1.5-2 minute load at 100 yards.

As for range, here in New England where I sit brush and hills are the rule of the game. Rare is the chance to SEE over 100 yards or so down where the deer live, let alone SHOOT it. I can count on my hands all of the deer I've ever seen past that football-field mark.

I've also had the opportunity to be breath-smelling close to a handful of moose down in the woods. And some people think a deer is a tough thing to miss while hiking!

Quite honestly, 1-2 MOA out of a sporter-weight rifle is all I expect. Even out of my Encore with a heavy centerfire barrel, better than 1.5-MOA would be pretty good. (It shoots about 3-MOA at last check, with a 20" .50-cal muzzleloader on it.)

 

[mete]

I forget the proper term for it but a bullet wobbles as it leaves the barrel an gradually settles down .So it is possible for example to get a 1" group at 100 yds and a 1 1/2" group at 200 yds . The heaviest bullets in cartridges like the 6.5x55 or 7x57 exibit this tendency.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I've got a buddy who has a custom .300Weatherby/6MM. I swear that rifle shoots like 2" at 100 yards and it is still shooting about 3" at 400 yards it's the darndest thing I've ever seen. It actually shoots tigher many times at 300than it does at 100???


Not to mention one serious huge waste of gun powder in my humble unjaded opinon.

 

[BIGJACK]

I think that there might be some credibility to the "spin-wobble" theory on bullets. I know that the spin of the bullet leaving the barrel must decrease, just as surely as does the bullet start to "fall", the instant that it leaves the barrel and this decrease in centrifugal force "might" decrease the wobble which "might" stabilize the bullet thus holding a closer group at further distances. A lot of mights but it is possible, I think.

I hunt out west some and I have shot deer and elk at 500 yds and further with a 30-06, which will consistenly shoot 1MOA. I always zero the 06 at +4 inches at 100yds and I know that it is about 36 inches low at 500. If I have the time to confirm the distance to be 500, I usually hit the target by holding what I think is 36 inches above the point that I want to hit using the deers chest to be about 18 inchs deep. Other wise if I am not sure of the distance I will have the cross hairs on hair for the first shot, if I hit under him i will adjust.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Jack,

If you are sighting in 4" @ 100. What is the distance and how high is your round at it's mid trajectory peak?


PS

What does "More tin foil" mean?

 

[hps1]

Let me start by saying that I have killed two bucks at ranges in excess of 500(measured) yards in my younger years and quite a few at 300 yards or better. Would I attempt a 500 yard shot today? No way! Too many bad things can happen at the moment the trigger breaks. An animal can simply take a step just as the trigger breaks at 350-400 yards to cause a gut shot on what would otherwise have been a good shot, not to mention the effect of wind/mirage/light conditions. Today, I am comfortable with a 250 yard shot, but hesitate on anything beyond. This is my self imposed limitation; each hunter must determine his own ability to deliver a humane shot.

One of my first priorities is to achieve the ultimate in accuracy from any rifle I own. I enjoy tweaking my rifle and loads to their utmost accuracy. Only accurate rifles are of interest to me, whether they be target rifles, or hunting rifles. I have only one rifle in my safe that will not shoot moa 5 shot groups @ 100 yds. and that is a 375 h&h which I have down to 1.25 moa and still working on loads. Have no doubt I'll get there as time permits. Accuracy is an end unto itself.

In a hunting rifle, my primary concern is the humane dispatch of the animal hunted. To that end, rifle accuracy is but the first step. One must have an initmate knowledge of trajectory and effect of wind, mirage, altitude and incline to be able to accurately deliver the bullet at extended ranges. An error of only a few yards in range estimation can result in a crippled animal at ranges in excess of 350 yards.

Just because your rifle shoots moa groups @ 100 yards off the bench does not mean it will shoot 2" @ 200, 3" @ 300 yds,, etc., especially under field conditions.

Is moa necessary for a hunting rifle? Not necessarily so, if shots are limited to the ability of the rifle and the shooter, but there is a certain mental edge in knowing the rifle/ammo combination will produce moa if the shooter does his/her part. Will a moa rifle produce moa under field conditions, especially at extended ranges? Absolutely not!

What many hunters do not realize is that external ballistics have a greater effect on bullet placement at extended ranges, under field conditions than does the ability of the rifle to shoot small groups off of the bench.

Know the limitations of your rifle, but more importantly, know your own limitations under field conditions.

Regards,
hps

 

[BIGJACK]

H&Hhunter, by mid trajectory peak if you mean +4 at 100yds and using my scope height of 1 1/5 inches the bullet height at 50 yds is approximately 2 1/4inches. If You mean the down range zero point which is roughly 230 yds the height is of course 4 inchs.

(the tin foil statement) I though someone might be getting vibes from outer space until I thought about it for a couple of minutes. I appologize for flying off the handle.

 

[shenck]

I have to agree with everything H&Hhunter has said, particularly post #10. I have an inline muzzle loader that will shoot one inch at 100 yards. But the deer I took last year was shot at 30 feet. I have a 30/06 that I have worked up a load for that will put three shots into one ragged hole at 100 yards, But the longest shot I would take is 200 yards. So far I have never had to do that. The deer I got two years ago I spotted at about 300 yards, but I wasn't in a hurry so I left him get to about 100 before I shot. I do feel there is a place for 300 yard shots, but not for the average hunter in the average situation. Before I bought the property I have now I hunted forest land, and you were lucky to even see past 75 yards.