The Giant NICS Improvement Act Thread Myth v. Reality

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Originally Posted by ronwill
All it takes is a small loop hole in any bill, such as HR4757 had and the anti's will be all over it.

Ronwill, Jorg's point is that the bill your are referencing (HR 4757) is from 2002. H.R. 2640 is not the same bill and has different language. If you weren't aware of that distinction, you might want to read the current bill. If you were aware of it, referring to the bill by the number from several Congresses and five years ago is a bit confusing.

My apologies for being confusing. I am aware that the two are seperate and have read both bills. While I never said that HR2640 should not be passed, I do believe anytime bills of this nature are being looked at we need to keep a wary eye on them. NICS improvement is badly needed, however, it must be worded very clearly or a loop hole can be used against us. That is all I was trying to point out.
 
Seriously, read the dam bill. GOA is making this out to be somthing it isn't. I read it, twice even, just to make sure I didn't miss somthing. GOA just proves again why 'We the People' need to take the time to get the facts and come to our own conclusion, instead of relying on someone else's opinion.
 
I think one of the problems here is that GOA is seizing on issues that are tangential at best while ignoring others that may be of real concern to us.

For an excellent example of something that concerns me, we can look at the Cho case from Virginia Tech.

In that case, Cho was a troubled young man. The judge knew what kind of serious effect an involuntary commitment would have on Cho's future and did not want to place him in that position. At the same time, to order him into outpatient treatment required that Cho be a danger to himself or others. The judge made it clear in news stories at the time that he never intended to place Cho on the NICS list or deprive him of rights. So here is the rub:

Under established case law on "involuntarily committed", the type of mental health counseling he received would not have been enough to place him on the NICS list. There are several cases establishing this and all circuits are in agreement. Further those cases suggest the type of procedure that must be met (my understanding is that Cho did not have counsel present and Cho should have had counsel present) and this hearing did not meet that standard.

However, under the ATF definition of "adjudicated mentally ill" that I cited above, Cho met the definition of "adjudicated mentally ill" and would be placed on the NICS list; even though the type of hearing he received was not sufficient to meet what higher courts have deemed the minimum standard of procedural protection to deprive someone of their rights to own firearms via involuntary commitment.

So my concern is that with H.R. 2640, a hearing where the judge did not intend to deprive Cho of his Second Amendment rights and where the hearing was not procedurally sufficient to have that effect would nevertheless deprive someone of their rights if we accept the ATF definition. Also since the legislation does not address this issue, this means the question of what kind of hearing you get to be determined "adjudicated mentally ill" may be up to a court.

Normally I wouldn't be concerned. In fact, I think if Cho had been placed on NICS by Virginia and challenged the decision in court, he would have probably won his case that there wasn't the due process necessary to put him on the NICS list. However, since H.R. 2640 is clearly in response to the Cho case, I am concerned that the first court that looks at this issue may decide that the law was intended to make the type of hearing Cho received enough to deprive someone of their rights.

Caveat:

My interpretation is based on the following facts being true and I do not know with certainty that they are true:

1. That Cho did not have counsel present
2. That the type of hearing Cho received did not meet the standards outlined in U.S. v. Giardina, 861 F.2d 1334 (5th Cir. 1988)

If I am wrong on either of those, then the whole concern falls apart. For one of the more informative THR threads on the subject see:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=272824&highlight=adjudicated+mentally&page=1
 
Cho had a lawyer.

From a Washington Post article:

"A day later, on Dec. 14, 2005, Paul M. Barnett, the special judge, decided that Cho was an imminent danger to himself as a result of mental illness and ordered him into involuntary outpatient treatment. It is a practice that Terry W. Teel, Cho's court-appointed lawyer and a special judge himself, said they use "all the time" in Blacksburg. "

The last I heard lawyers are appointed for everyone having a hearing resulting from a tempoary detention order. JT


http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/GeneralResources/VACivilCommitmentProcessGuide.htm

"Your Guide to Commitment of Mentally Ill Individuals in Virginia
Reprinted with permission of Whitbeck & Associates, P.C."

"The petitioner has a right to an attorney at the hearing. Because the allegedly mentally ill person has an attorney appointed to represent them the petitioner will be at a disadvantage." [The petitioner being the person who requested the temporary detention order - the parent, spouse, etc. JT]
 
Seriously, read the dam bill. GOA is making this out to be somthing it isn't. I read it, twice even, just to make sure I didn't miss somthing. GOA just proves again why 'We the People' need to take the time to get the facts and come to our own conclusion, instead of relying on someone else's opinion.


My point exactly Frogomatic. Far to many will take the word of the NRA, or other "trusted" group, and not study the item on their own. Study the issue and make up your own mind. I guess we agree on that.
 
Bart, you raise some good points that show the interplay between state and federal law is not always smooth. I don't see an easy solution, since commitment procedures are established by the state and you also have Constitutional issues. This may be something that no matter how hard they try to make clear, will need to be addressed through caselaw. OTOH, we may be stuck with two different standards...one that satisfies due process for commitment and one that does so for a loss of 2nd Amendment rights.
 
Thanks for the input JohnBT.

For those who were concerned about the use of "lawful authority" being extended to mean anyone at all, take a look at the Giardina case I mentioned earlier. In that case, Giardina was involuntary committed to a mental hospital by doctors under Louisiana law (examination and approval by two separate doctors). Under Louisiana law at the time, just the authority of the doctors is sufficient to commit someone for up to 14 days; but by 15 days the patient must either be released or given a judicial commitment hearing. In this case the patient was released.

In 1987, prior to NICS, Giardina purchased a .38 pistol and answered negative to the 4473 questions. The government prosecuted him for violation of 922(g)(4) and he was convicted in District Court before appealing to the 5th Circuit. The 5th Circuit ruled "A review of Louisiana's admission by emergency certificate procedure reflects its magnitude, but it also clearly reflects that this procedure does not constitute a commitment under Louisiana law." and overturned the lower court.

In so holding, the 5th Circuit took the same position as the 8th Circuit on the issue. Also significant in the Giardina case is that under the initial hospitalization order, Giardina was found to be a danger to himself or others by two separate psychaitrists and would appear to meet the definition of "adjudicated mentally ill"; yet the court still vacated and dismissed his conviction.
 
I read it and as it is right now I see no problem with it. I do however, see dozens if not hundreds of ways it could be twisted by changing the definition of mental illness. I can imagine the average jury looking at my 16 guns and deciding that I must be mentally ill to want so many powerful things. I even want the ability to carry my small ones in public where they are a danger to small children. Obviously I am either insane or a criminal and must not be allowed to own such weapons. It looks ok right now. But I don't see any reason to give them a ghost of a chance for future disarming of citizens. That does not even consider the nasty things they could tack on to this bill. Kinda like Catch-22. If you want a gun for self defense you must be crazy and therefore can't have one and are defenseless. If you don't have one you are defenseless.

"There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one's safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to. Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle."
 
I do however, see dozens if not hundreds of ways it could be twisted by changing the definition of mental illness.

Well then you have a bigger problem if that is your concern since the law disallowing firearms ownership to the mentally ill was passed in 1968 and won't be changed by this bill.

The main things this bill does are:

1. Give money to the states to include people determined by a court to be a danger to themselves or others in NICS
2. Require states to have a "relief from disability" program that people can appeal to if they want that money.
 
Will "adjudications" protect the rights of the mentally ill?

It has been an article of faith by some that people accused of being mentally ill had protection from an adjudication process. At least in the first US Circuit a 1998 decision suggests that may not be so. Selections from U.S. v. Chamberlain, 159 F.3d 656 (1st Cir. 1998) are quoted below -- I urge all to read the full opinion.
Richard Chamberlain appeals from his conviction in the United States District Court for the District of Maine on one count of possession of a firearm pursuant to 18 U.S.C. � 922(g)(4), which makes it unlawful for any person who has been "committed to a mental institution" to possess any firearm in interstate commerce. Under Maine law, Chamberlain had earlier been involuntarily admitted for five days, on an emergency basis, to a Maine mental hospital. Chamberlain moved to dismiss the federal information, contending that his involuntary emergency admission was not, as a matter of law, a "commitment" to a mental institution as required for conviction under � 922(g)(4). The district court denied the motion. Chamberlain entered a conditional guilty plea, reserving his right to challenge on appeal the denial of his motion to dismiss. He was sentenced to five years probation and ordered to pay a $100 assessment. This appeal followed. We affirm.

On June 25, 1996, Chamberlain was involuntarily admitted, on an emergency basis, to the Acadia Hospital in Bangor, Maine pursuant to an application filed under a Maine statute, 34-B M.R.S.A. � 3863(1)-(3).(1) In the application seeking Chamberlain's involuntary admission, a clinician at Acadia stated that "Chamberlain has a mental illness and, due to mental illness, poses a likelihood of serious harm, on the basis that he put a loaded gun to his head and threatened his wife." The application further stated that "suitable resources for care and treatment are unavailable in the community." Chamberlain was examined on June 25, 1996, by a licensed physician, who certified pursuant to section 3863 that Chamberlain posed a danger of serious harm due to mental illness because he "held a gun to his head tonight" and constituted a "[d]anger to [him]self and others." A judge of the Maine district court reviewed and endorsed the application and certification as being prepared in accordance with law, and ordered that Chamberlain be transported and admitted to Acadia for no more than five days, the maximum length of an emergency detention under section 3863.

After Chamberlain had been admitted to Acadia, a second physician examined him and completed a "24-Hour Certification Form." On the form, the physician certified that he had "examined [Chamberlain] and in my opinion the patient is mentally ill, and, due to his [] mental illness, poses a likelihood of serious harm to himself [] or others if discharged at this time." As grounds for the certification, the physician stated that Chamberlain had "put a gun to his head last evening with suicidal ideation" and "remains distraught today and constitutes a danger to [him]self."

A patient who has been detained for five days pursuant to section 3863 may thereafter remain at the mental hospital if (1) the patient voluntarily admits himself, see 34-B M.R.S.A. � 3831(2), or (2) the chief administrative officer of the mental hospital obtains from the state district court an "involuntary commitment order," see 34-B M.R.S.A. �� 3863 (5)(B), 3864.(3) After his initial five-day emergency detention, Chamberlain voluntarily admitted himself to Acadia on or about June 30, 1996, remaining there until his release on July 8, 1996. The chief administrative officer made no application in his case for an "involuntary commitment order."

On May 19, 1997, a police officer received a suicide/attempt to locate report from Chamberlain's brother. Chamberlain's brother told the officer that Chamberlain was upset over the breakup of his marriage, had stated that he had nothing to live for, and was suicidal. The officer located Chamberlain's pickup truck in an airport parking lot. Inside the truck were a loaded Remington .270 caliber rifle, a box of .270 caliber ammunition, and a Savage 30-30 caliber rifle. These items, which were manufactured outside the state of Maine, were seized and Chamberlain was arrested and charged in the federal district court with violation of 18 U.S.C. � 922(g)(4).

Chamberlain filed a motion to dismiss the information on the ground that he had not, as a matter of law, been "committed to a mental institution" within the meaning of � 922(g)(4). The federal district court denied the motion, and issued findings of fact and conclusions of law.

Chamberlain entered a conditional plea of guilty under Fed. R. Crim. P. 11(a)(2) to one count of unlawful possession of a firearm, reserving his right to appeal from the district court's denial of his motion to dismiss. The court sentenced Chamberlain to five years' probation and a mandatory $100 assessment.

. . .

We reject Chamberlain's argument that a person is not "committed" for purposes of the federal firearms ban unless all of the requirements set forth in section 3864 -- including provision of counsel, a full-blown adversary hearing, a finding by clear and convincing evidence that the person suffers from a mental illness, and a judicial order of commitment -- are satisfied. Persons held under section 3863 are involuntarily detained as surely as are those held for longer periods under the more elaborate procedures of section 3864. Moreover, to treat section 3864 detention as the only "real" commitment would come close to limiting "commitments" to cases in which a person has actually been "adjudicated a mental defective" after an adversary hearing. 18 U.S.C. � 922(g)(4) separately bans persons who have been "adjudicated a mental defective" from owning firearms, in addition to those who have been "committed to a mental institution." In denying firearms to those "committed to a mental institution," Congress appears to have cast a wider net -- to "maximize the possibility of keeping firearms out of the hands of [,among others, persons suffering from mental illness]." See 114 Cong. Rec. 21784 (1968) (remarks of Congressman Celler). Requiring an adversary hearing and a judicial finding of mental illness would conflate two of the categories Congress singled out for the firearms prohibition.

We repeat that Congress deemed the potential for misuse of firearms or violence sufficient to bring various categories of individuals within the firearms ban. The legislative history nowhere suggests the need for showing "clear and convincing evidence" of dangerousness with regard to other categories of individuals placed within the firearms ban -- including those under indictment, convicted felons, drug abusers, illegal aliens, and those who have renounced their citizenship. To require a full-scale adversary proceeding and a finding, by clear and convincing evidence, that a person is mentally ill and poses a likelihood of harm to himself or others before giving effect to the firearms ban would undermine Congress's judgment that risk or potential, not likelihood, probability, or certainty, of violence is all that is required.

Nor does it appear that Congress intended that only persons conclusively found to be suffering from mental illnesses or difficulties after having been afforded the fullest possible panoply of due process rights be deemed to have been "committed to a mental institution" for purposes of the firearms ban.(12) That level of formality is not required for most of the categories Congress identified as within the firearms ban, including those who have merely been indicted for a crime. See 18 U.S.C. � 922(n). When Congress has intended that a particular status triggering the firearms ban be conditioned upon notice and the opportunity to be heard, along with other procedural rights, it has stated so explicitly. In 1994, for example, Congress amended the Gun Control Act to include within the firearms prohibition persons subject to a court order that . . . restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child . . .

. . .


We reject Chamberlain's argument that a person is not "committed" for purposes of the federal firearms ban unless all of the requirements set forth in section 3864 -- including provision of counsel, a full-blown adversary hearing, a finding by clear and convincing evidence that the person suffers from a mental illness, and a judicial order of commitment -- are satisfied.

I do not know at the moment whether these holdings from the 1st Circuit have been overturned since this decision.
 
U.S. v. Chamberlain is still good law with regard to the First Circuit Court of Appeals interpretation of the Maine state commitment law. If other states in the First Circuit have stricter requirements, it could be a different story; but it certainly shows that where the person in question pointed a gun at his head and his wifes, threatened suicide, and then was committed based on the evaluation of a licensed psychiatrist with the endorsement of a judge, he will be placed into NICS.

U.S. v. Giardina is precedent in the 5th Circuit and follows the reasoning of the 8th Circuit decision in U.S. v. Hansel, 474 F.2d 1120 (8th Cir. 1973).

U.S. v. Vertz, 40 Fed. Appdx. 60 (6th Cir. 2002) disapproved of some of the reasoning in Giardina and Hansel that the federal term of "commitment" should be determined based on the definition in state law in interpreting Michigan state law; but did not reach a conclusion on the issue of adjudication because the defendant had also been found mentally ill in probate court - although the court apparently did not check some of the required boxes on the forms on the commitment papers.

Vertz troubles me more than Chamberlain. In 1988, Vertz sought voluntary treatment due for his drug abuse; but once at the private mental health facility he threatened staff and threatened to commit suicide. The staff then had him involuntarily committed. Both psychaitrists declared him a danger to himself and the second one said he was incompetent to even manage his own affairs. The court ordered a third evaluation in order to consider alternatives to involuntary commitment and that report too said Vertz needed hospitalization.

Fast forward to 2000... Vertz has had a long history of depression and mental illness and someone apparently called the ATF and informed them that Vertz owned a large number of firearms in violation of 922(g). ATF showed up and discovered 17 firearms - all of which they stated were typically owned firearms that any average citizen might own. All of the firearms were kept in a safe except for a Glock that Vertz carried for protection. Vertz was arrested, charged with violation of 922(g) and convicted.

In Vertz's case, it is hard to argue that he didn't get a fair hearing on his involuntary commitment; but the remarks of the 6th Circuit seem to indicate they favor the Chamberlain approach (any adjudication is enough - don't need an adversarial hearing).

On the one hand, H.R. 2640 would actually help the Vertz's of the world by allowing them to make their case that they are better now. On the other, unless Congress through legislation makes clear what type of hearing is necessary to constitute "adjudication", it is clear that residents of some states (Maine for sure), will not get the same level of protection that most gun owners enjoy. However, the second problem is an existing problem. It happens whether we pass H.R. 2640 or not... the only thing that not passing H.R. 2640 will do for these gun owners is it will allow them to continue to buy guns without being denied by NICS; but the actual purchase will still be illegal under current law.
 
Point of order please.

"The staff then had him involuntarily committed."

The staff no doubt requested a temporary detention order, or whatever that state calls it, but they didn't have him involuntarily committed because they don't have the authority.

After the TDO was issued the court system then obtained the information/evaluations/reports necessary for a decision to be made during the involuntary committment hearing. Then the judge/administrative hearing officer made the decision to order an involuntary committment. The facility doctors didn't do it.

Anybody can request a TDO. Maybe you get it, maybe you don't.

John
 
Bartholomew Roberts, you need to re-read Chamberlain again. The only thing endorsed by the Judge was that the application and certification as being prepared in accordance with law. The evaluation itself was not endorsed. The Judge only certified that the steps required by law were performed. So, where are our protections in the judicial system?

No hearing was held, no adverse process with right to own experts, with legal representation, with right to examine witnesses and dispute evidence.

It's true that the problem exists today. It is also true that we have placed into the hands of experts today powers that should be in the hands of the people to protect against abuse.

Nothing about HR2640 will make this better. No additional protections were required by notions of fairness within this bill. The cavalier dismissal of rights by the 1st circuit court in saying Congress could abrogate rights of people if only doctors approved are outrageous. Making such a process more effective in denying rights is not something I view with favor.

BTW this 1st Circuit opinion covers other states as the memo posted on the Delaware Attorney General site shows by saying:
In conclusion, it is our opinion that the DPC [Delaware Psychiatric Center] may not report to SBI the identities of persons detained for 24 hours or less pursuant to 16 Del. C. §5122. However, the DPC should report to SBI the identities of all persons who have been provisionally admitted on authority of a psychiatrist's certificate conforming to 16 Del. C. §5003, even if the patient is thereafter discharged or voluntary admitted prior to a judicial hearing.
 
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JohnBT says:
The staff no doubt requested a temporary detention order, or whatever that state calls it, but they didn't have him involuntarily committed because they don't have the authority.

After the TDO was issued the court system then obtained the information/evaluations/reports necessary for a decision to be made during the involuntary committment hearing.

I think you need to read the whole decision. The 1st Circuit described the process Chamberlain underwent as creating a commitment disability. No hearing was held for commitment.
 
Phil Lee said:
Bartholomew Roberts, you need to re-read Chamberlain again. The only thing endorsed by the Judge was that the application and certification as being prepared in accordance with law. The evaluation itself was not endorsed.

When I said endorsed I was referring to part of the decision saying "A judge of the Maine district court reviewed and endorsed the application and certification as being prepared in accordance with law." If that is not semantically pure enough for you, then you will probably be better off not reading my future posts.

Nothing about HR2640 will make this better.

On the contrary, H.R. 2640 would require that any state that accepted funds to include names in NICS would also have to provide a process for applicants to appeal relief from disability - which right now Chamberlain does not have at all. He is prohibited forever.

BTW this 1st Circuit opinion covers other states as the memo posted on the Delaware Attorney General site shows by saying

The First Circuit opinion may cover other states. First, the involuntary commitment has to meet the minimum established by state law. Second, those states have to be in a circuit that believes that judicial action is not necessary (i.e. not the 5th or 8th Circuit).

Only in circuits where the view is that the terminology of the state commitment statute does not prevail can this apply. Despite the fact that the Delaware AG calls this "the prevailing view" there are as many circuit cases that oppose that view as support it. The Delaware AG throws in a New York district court opinion (a lower court) to make it the "prevailing view"

I think you need to read the whole decision. The 1st Circuit described the process Chamberlain underwent as creating a commitment disability.

Speaking of reading the whole thing, JohnBT was commenting on Vertz, not Chamberlain.
 
Thanks for pointing that JohnBT was commenting on your discussion of Vertz. I did miss that fine point. How wonderful it is that Vertz references Chamberlain and takes the same approach, to wit, people are committed by doctors (common physicians) with no adversary hearing, not even the equivalent of an arraignment and proponents of HR2640 are willing to call that an adjudication.

I'm glad we agree that will continue under HR2640, since that bill does nothing to improve the due process afforded people initially caught up in the mental health grist mill.

How wonderful that HR2640 gives us the ability to appeal, what the courts have already held legal -- why would you expect such an appeal to produce a different result than these Courts have? Is it because these people might no longer be disturbed and a danger?

In Texas, people who no longer are a danger must be released -- can it be that Texans being released under HR2640 automatically will be taken off the NICS list (since such a person no longer meets the dangerousness criterion)? What a wonderful idea -- that people who are a danger and mentally ill are committed and who are no longer a danger are released. For states that follow that practice, NICS will deny these people the right to buy arms while they are committed -- a public safety measure of dubious value.

Somehow, I suspect that people released from commitment in Texas will have to undergo the appeal process to be taken off.

NICS is a simple-on, practically-impossible-off list. That's true today, and will be true after the passage of HR2640. But HR2640 will make it so much more efficient at denying Americans their rights. There's an appeal to every American gun owner.
 
I am apposed to bedding with the enemy. If this legislation is so important why did the NRA have to do this with the enemy. Some bugs don't have a cure.

Maybe because the NRA can't sponsor bills in the Senate?~:rolleyes:

Using your logic, you would be opposed to arming airline pilots, because Barbra Boxer also supported it.
 
How wonderful it is that Vertz references Chamberlain and takes the same approach, to wit, people are committed by doctors (common physicians) with no adversary hearing, not even the equivalent of an arraignment and proponents of HR2640 are willing to call that an adjudication.

Actually Vertz was examined by two licensed psychaitrists before being referred to the probate court. The probate court ordered a third evaluation with a focus on alternative treatment and that psychaitrist also agreed Vertz needed to be hospitalized. As a result the probate court ordered a 90-day treatment at a private hospital. So unlike Chamberlain, Vertz received an adversarial hearing, exam by physician, etc.

What the Vertz court agreed with was the decision of the Chamberlain court that the state statute was not determinative. The 6th Circuit only looked at the federal law and decided that if whatever procedure Vertz had received met the intent of Congress under the federal law, that was sufficient.

In contrast, the Giardiana and Hansel courts looked more at the state statute and if they determined the state statute/process wasn't meant to revoke rights then whatever form of commitment it supported also wasn't sufficient to revoke rights.

Finally, I think you need to pay attention to the facts of the case as well. It was undisputed and unchallenged in the Chamberlain case that he pointed a firearm at himself and his wife and threatened to kill one or both of them. Chamberlain was frankly lucky to be treated as a mentally ill patient involuntarily committed instead of an armed felon. I agree that an adversarial hearing is always desirable; but I question how much would have been gained in this case where the defendant was threatening to kill himself and his wife and did not claim otherwise?

Let's also not forget that Chamberlain was arrested because he was once again suicidally depressed when his marriage broke up and was caught at an airport with a .270 rifle and some ammo sitting in the airport parking lot. As much as I wish Chamberlain had gotten an adversarial hearing, I'm still really glad we weren't discussing him in a Cho-like thread (especially since this would have been 1997 when Clinton was in office).

How wonderful that HR2640 gives us the ability to appeal, what the courts have already held legal -- why would you expect such an appeal to produce a different result than these Courts have?

Two reasons: One is that the appeals process gives gun owners a chance to present evidence in their favor. Gunowners in any state, like Maine, that adjudicates people as mentally ill without an adversarial hearing will get a chance to be heard. In fact, the state is required to have a relief from disability process if they want the funding. In other states, it will allow people who were mentally ill but who have since lived peacefully in society (a la Vertz) to regain their right to own firearms if they have gained control over their illness.

What a wonderful idea -- that people who are a danger and mentally ill are committed and who are no longer a danger are released.

Franky, I think that is an incredibly naive view of mental illness. In an earlier thread, I spoke of a man I knew who lived with a near-disabling mental illness for a decade. As long as he took his medication, he did fine. He held down a job. He was able to manage his own affairs. The two times he went off his medication, he was out threatening people with knives and screwdrivers. So should this man be imprisoned in a mental hospital from the time he was diagnosed as a potential danger? Do you see any contradiction in complaining that it isn't fair to deprive somebody of their right to arms just because of mental illness and then at the same time insisting that courts take anyone who might be a danger and lock them away until we know they are 100% cured? How do you think that is going to work in actual practice?

But HR2640 will make it so much more efficient at denying Americans their rights.

Once again... the current state of the law is that if you are on NICS, you can never be removed from it. Period. H.R. 2640 makes it where if a state accepts funds to add names to NICS (be more "efficient"), it must also provide a "relief from disability" process for those adjudicated mentally ill or involuntarily committed.

Finally, the bill doesn't just add names to NICS, it makes the information more complete (i.e. by distinguishing between John Smith the convicted felon and John Smith the peacable citizen) and has the potential to remove some of the delays and hassles that law-abiding gun owners face right now.
 
Bartholomew Roberts says
Finally, the bill doesn't just add names to NICS, it makes the information more complete (i.e. by distinguishing between John Smith the convicted felon and John Smith the peacable citizen) and has the potential to remove some of the delays and hassles that law-abiding gun owners face right now.

At the risk of being berated about "semantic purity" you can be removed from NICS today if you can show you are on the list by error and that is an administrative step. You only have to show you are peacable John Smith not felon John Smith and off you go (at least in the practical sense).

I guess I have to start labeling my statements as "sarcasm" to avoid your thinking me naive (actually think away -- I don't care). The basic point, if you would really examine the information content I provided, is that if you ever find yourself listed as a prohibited person for mental health reasons, any HR2640 appeal process will require you to show that you no longer satisfy the conditions that placed you on the list.

One way to show that you no longer satisfied the conditions is to show you've been cured of mental illness. Do people get cured of mental illness, ever? Another is that you are no longer dangerous. Since the BATFE regulation requires both to hold (before you jump, I'm simplifying here and am neglecting the lessor important "unable to manage own affairs" condition.

So, it would appear that an HR2640 appeal would require you to go virtually through the same psychological review that resulted in your commitment in the first place. That is, psychologists (or a couple of GP doctors, or maybe a couple of mental health nurses, or . . . ) would evaluate you as to whether you are mentally ill and, if so, whether you were dangerous. If mental illness cannot be cured, then it comes down to dangerousness.

In Texas, the mental institutions to which the dangerous mentally ill are committed are not supposed to release them if they are dangerous. So, the release is evidence of a psychological evaluation that they are no longer dangerous. Unless there is a fly in the ointment not yet discussed about the HR2640 appeal process, the release from NICS should be a snap. (That last was sarcasm, if you couldn't tell).

But, you and I know the HR2640 appeal process won't actually be releasing people once committed (short of a cure for the mental illness).

Hell, one of the problems with the current application of mental health firearms disability is that the BATFE's regulation don't have the force of law, that some courts in different circuits have adopted these requlations while others have not and tried to follow the law written by Congress (and state legislatures), that Congress never has defined terms such as mental defective and certainly never defined the mental health disability the way the BATFE regulations have, that the HR2640 provision for "adjudication" is so vague that it admits the possibility that a couple of GP MDs can hold your rights in their hands and decide your fate without any adversary hearing before a judge much less one giving you a right to legal representation, having your own experts testify, being able to call witnesses or having a jury of common people be trier of facts.

Moreover, the HR2640 appeal process criteria to release you from the NICS list once you get on the list is as vague as all the other issues concerning aspects of mental health firearm disability.

So, tell me again why gun owners should support HR2640.
 
At the risk of being berated about "semantic purity" you can be removed from NICS today if you can show you are on the list by error and that is an administrative step.

Yes; but the burden is on the gun owner to do this. H.R. 2640 would provide money to the states to update this information so that an appeal would be unneccessary - which I am sure you appreciate given your objections to gun owners having to ask for relief from being adjudicated mentally ill.

In addition the automation of the process means that when changes are necessary, they won't take days to implement.

But, you and I know the HR2640 appeal process won't actually be releasing people once committed (short of a cure for the mental illness).

I disagree. I just gave two references to cases where people managed to regain their right to bear arms after being committed and they faced a much more difficult process involving conviction in a federal court and appeal to a circuit court. So I am not as skeptical as you are that this is a permanent status.

that the HR2640 provision for "adjudication" is so vague

Once more, H.R. 2640 does not provide the definition of adjudication. That is already defined in 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(4). H.R. 2640 as it is currently written will have absolutely no effect on this definition or the fact that it is vague and interpreted differently by various courts.

Let's just assume for the sake of argument that everything you say is true and your foresight regarding how the appeals process will work is impeccable. What changes? All of the things covered by this bill are still illegal. All of the problems you have outlined still exist. The only difference is that the states get federal money to add people to the NICS system more quickly. Of course, you also get a chance to be removed from the list - however imperfect that process might be, it is is still better than the chance you get now (goose egg).

Without this bill, these people get no chance at all to be removed from NICS; but they may be lucky enough to buy a firearm (which is still illegal for them to do) before their name is added to NICS. Then they can "appeal" the same way Chamberlain, Vertz, Giardina and Hansel did. They can be arrested and charged. They can then hope they win instead of going to prison and take their chances in District Court, Court of Appeals, etc. I haven't priced what it costs to get a lawyer to the circuit court for a criminal defense; but I feel confident that it would be a nice chunk of your mortgage; but hey... at least they won't have to worry about making the records of mentally ill people who have been judged a danger to themselves or others more complete.

Finally, this bill was originally proposed in 2002 after a mentally ill man shot up a church. It was reintroduced every year since then, including this year with much stronger support after a mentally ill man shot up a college. Whether this bill is defeated this year or not, you are going to see it again in the future. I think a strong case can be made that in the next four years our leverage is not likely to improve so that we are in a better position to demand more concessions or changes. To put it another way, if defeated this session, the bill will be back after the 2008 elections. Do you think we will be in a better position to make the changes we want then? Will we be in a position to defeat it again for the next four years?
 
How wonderful it is that Vertz references Chamberlain and takes the same approach, to wit, people are committed by doctors (common physicians) with no adversary hearing, not even the equivalent of an arraignment and proponents of HR2640 are willing to call that an adjudication.

Vertz was in Michigan, which requires an adversarial hearing in probate court in order to commit someone. As I have said before, this is not an easy thing to do. At least it hasn't been in the counties I have worked in.
 
www.maine.gov/dhhs/mh/rights-legal/involuntary/faq/home.html#q1

Maine DHHS: Rights and Legal Issues - Involuntary Commitment

It appears they use Blue Paper to refer to the temporary detention order and White Paper to refer to the committment process.

"What is a "White Paper"?

The application that the hospital files with the District Court in order to request a court order of hospitalization is commonly referred to as a "White Paper".

What Happens Once a Hospital Files a "White Paper" Requesting a Court Order of Hospitalization?
Once the hospital files a "White Paper" several things happen:

The hospital must give the person a copy of the application
The hospital must also give the person and guardian/next of kin notice of:
The right to hire an attorney or have an attorney appointed
The right to choose an independent examiner or have his/her attorney select an independent examiner
How to contact the District Court"

The process seems to be very similar to Virginia's, including the right to an attorney.

John
 
JohnBT, I think the concern here is that Chamberlain was held under a Blue Paper and did not receive the process afforded under a White Paper. Despite this, the First Circuit ruled that this was enough to meet the definition of "adjudicated mentally ill" at least and found him guilty of violating 922(g)(4).
 
"No hearing was held, no adverse process with right to own experts, with legal representation, with right to examine witnesses and dispute evidence."

Look to your state laws then.
Virginia had to update all the laws following the scandals as late as the 1970s that included sterilizing patients in state hospitals.
Commitment now requires a hearing before a judge and legal representation.
It is still done in a relatively private way to avoid stigmatizing people, and the system does try to avoid the involuntary label by offering patients every chance to voluntarily commit themselves.
The listing of Cho on the NICS system is not as black and white as it appears from the discussion here, and lawyers have taken both sides (of course):rolleyes:.

If your state laws allow commitment without adversarial hearings and representation, then work to have your state laws updated.
The FEDs are not going to write there rules to account for 50+ different laws.
 
Maine's involuntary commitment may effectively be by 1 cop and 1 MD

From the link supplied by JohnBT

Who Can Request that Some One be Involuntarily Committed?
Anyone, including health care providers and law enforcement officers, may request that a person be involuntarily committed. They do that by filling out Part 1 of the "Blue Paper". The person making the request must state:

* His/her belief that the person has a mental illness
* His/her belief that the person poses a likelihood of serious harm because of the mental illness
* Why s/he believes this

The person making the request must also provide name and address of the proposed patient's guardian, spouse, parent, adult child, next of kin, or (if none of those exists) friend, so that the hospital can fulfill its obligation to notify that person.

What Happens After Some One Starts a Blue Paper?
The person making the request then finds a doctor or other clinical person to do a “certifying examination.” The examination is usually done by crisis staff or hospital staff.

The examiner completes Part 2 of the Blue Paper and must make an official statement that the person examined:

* Has a mental illness; and
* The illness causes a substantial risk of harm to self and/or others

The examiner must explain the reasons for her/his opinions and must also specify the least restrictive form of transportation that would meet the patient's clinical needs.

The person making the request for involuntary hospitalization (usually crisis or hospital staff) then locates a hospital bed and somebody to provide transportation, and asks a judge or justice of the peace to sign Part 3 of the Blue Paper, indicating that the application was completed in accordance with the law. The judge or justice of the peace doesn’t make a determination about whether the statements on the application are true or not.

According to the Chamberlain ruling, no involuntary commitment order is necessary if (after this initial stay) the patient volunteers for additional treatment. The Court explained
We reject Chamberlain's argument that a person is not "committed" for purposes of the federal firearms ban unless all of the requirements set forth in section 3864 -- including provision of counsel, a full-blown adversary hearing, a finding by clear and convincing evidence that the person suffers from a mental illness, and a judicial order of commitment -- are satisfied. Persons held under section 3863 are involuntarily detained as surely as are those held for longer periods under the more elaborate procedures of section 3864. Moreover, to treat section 3864 detention as the only "real" commitment would come close to limiting "commitments" to cases in which a person has actually been "adjudicated a mental defective" after an adversary hearing. 18 U.S.C. ? 922(g)(4) separately bans persons who have been "adjudicated a mental defective" from owning firearms, in addition to those who have been "committed to a mental institution." In denying firearms to those "committed to a mental institution," Congress appears to have cast a wider net -- to "maximize the possibility of keeping firearms out of the hands of [,among others, persons suffering from mental illness]." See 114 Cong. Rec. 21784 (1968) (remarks of Congressman Celler). Requiring an adversary hearing and a judicial finding of mental illness would conflate two of the categories Congress singled out for the firearms prohibition.

It couldn't be clearer -- at least for Maine -- that you are disqualified if a cop and a MD agree you should be (although that wouldn't be the language they would use). Adjudication in Maine is their opinion combined with a properly filled out official form signed-off by a judge.

In Delaware you can be disqualified (made a prohibited person) by provisional admission to the Delaware Psychiatric Center on the authority of
a psychiatrist's certificate conforming to 16 Del. C. §5003, even if the patient is thereafter discharged or voluntary admitted prior to a judicial hearing.

I've read, but cannot verify, that NY law allows commitment by two doctors and that is all the "adjudication" needed for creating a prohibited person. I'm looking for conformation.

But, so far, at least two states have "adjudication" processes that don't involve adversary hearings and commitments by these processes make a person prohibited from possessing firearms.

HR2640 offers no fix to the basic problem of lack of standards to protect rights (not just to firearms, but to freedom itself) in mental health "adjudications". Some might think that having an appeals process in states (and Federal agencies) will repair these errors, but I have no confidence that repair is likely where fundamental processing flaws are tolerated.
 
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