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The Government is Supposed to Keep Us Safe Right??

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Black92LX, Jul 19, 2003.

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  1. Black92LX

    Black92LX Member

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    Sometimes I wonder how much safer we actually are with new laws and regulations our government passes.

    They took God out of our schools and look what's happening, in come the guns to take lives of the innocent.

    They are trying to take away guns, then what's to keep us and our children safe in our own homes. from these people that don't feel like working hard so they will go take it from someone who has worked hard.

    I just don't understand the reasoning. Why should the majority be punished for the actions of the extreme minority.

    I wish i lived in the times like my grandfather did. no one cringed when they saw someone with a gun. They said class prayers every morning when school started and knew what it men to ba a man of God. no one had a problem with working hard all day and even nights to make a dollar. when there weren't even locks on the front doors of homes becuase.

    granted aspects f life have gotten better than them but there are some that are seriously slipping. i am only 20 and have quite a lot of life left. and i am scared to see what kind of world my kids are going to grow up in. at this rate who knows.

    Just some things i have been thinking about lately.
     
  2. Skofnung

    Skofnung Member

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    While I disagree with you on the God in school point, (I attended a Baptist school for 12 years and now believe that religion should not be forced upon kids. It is up to parents to teach kids values, not the school system.) I too fear for the future of our people.

    A very wise man told me once that our very freedom is going to be our downfall. Freedom means both the oppurtunity to excell, and the oppurtunity to fail. As precieved affluence grows, it fosters apathy.

    We KNOW we are on top of the world right now, so we get cocky. We get lazy. We let politicians have their way with us, so long as we can afford a new car or truck every four years. We let or means of production (industry and agriculture) slip away to other parts of the world where labor is cheap.

    This has happened before, and it will happen again with us. Rome was once a Republic as we are now. It conquered half the known world and then delved into despotism. It then conquered most of what it had not before, and in a few centuries, fell to its own excesses, its affluence. While our situation is not the same, there are common threads.

    Our problem s not the removal of the Bible from public schools. Our problem is the slacker mentality. The hard work of many generations can be squandered in one. That is what affluence does. Our freedom was bought with a price, and the generation of our parents (baby boomers) have begun the process of squandering that freedom. Our generation will more than likely continue this process.

    The only thing that I know to do about the problem is to live my life in accordance with my beliefs. I write my Congressmen. I practice the arts of shooting and self defense that I was taught by my Father and Grandfather. I work hard. I try to influence my friends and fellow citizens to do the same.

    I apologize for the length of my post, but I too am in my early 20's and have been thinking about this stuff lately as well.
     
  3. Sunray

    Sunray Member

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    Hi, guys. There is no reason involved with the anti-gun people. They're not interested in logic. Most people where we come from have never seen a gun, never mind shot one. Neither have most new cops and cops are good guys for the most part. Just guys doing a job.
    I would suggest that both of you study history. Read every thing you can about history. And not just US history. All history is fascinating. Your local public library is full of books for free. Read about Patton, McArther and all the rest. Read Hatcher's Note Book, Hatcher's Book of the Garand. Read everything in the history section of your library. Read it all. Trust me, read.
    Knowledge is power. And stay in school. Get a degree. Trust me.
    You guys want to chat, toheir@hotmail.com
     
  4. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    There is no reasoning. The law-abiding majority isn't being punished for the crimes of the minority, but because we have the temerity to differ with our self-appointed intellectual betters. They know they can't get away with shoving socialism down America's throat today, so they're chipping away at our civil rights one "reasonable compromise," one "safety measure," one "for the sake of the children" regulation at a time. They need to disarm and silence us.
     
  5. Majic

    Majic Member

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    School prayers maybe a swing issue and I can understand as there are many religions, but when I started school we started every class day with a honor to our flag and country. That has been stopped and I think that's fundamentaly wrong.
     
  6. telomerase

    telomerase Member

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    >School prayers maybe a swing issue and I can understand as there are many religions, but when I started school we started every class day with a honor to our flag and country. That has been stopped and I think that's fundamentaly wrong.


    The problem here is that the violations of your rights didn't occur when your child got to the school. A conflict is created when you are taxed to support schools that contradict your values. The only way to fix this is by letting parents choose schools, instead of politicians.

    Some people think this could be achieved by vouchers... personally I think that any voucher system run by the State will inevitably end up back where we are now. With the Internet, there's no excuse for schools costing 17,000 per pupil year (as do the wonderful Washington DC schools). My Chinese co-workers were educated for a few hundred dollars per year, and they dominate the molecular biology field.

    (You may be right about the flag; but then again, the Nazis started every day with the flag... maybe the children should learn the Constitution instead...)
     
  7. Skofnung

    Skofnung Member

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    Sunray,

    Thank you for your suggestion regarding the study of history. I have a Bachelor's degree in History and I believe along with you that studying it is important if we are to understand where we are today. I have not read Hatchers Notebook, so I guess I will have to give it a look. A solid handle on US history is very important, but knowledge of world history is crucial.

    I agree with you Standing Wolf, rabid anti gunners are rabid because they are too full of emotion. Reason without emotion is dangerous, and so is emotion without reason. I chalk rabid gun haters up as lost causes. We should however, try to bring the somewhat reasonable majority of antis into our fold by teaching them.

    Telomerase, I could not agree with you more. My parents sent me to private school because of the quality of the education. On top of paying my tuition, they still had to pay taxes to support the Florida school system. The cost to educate a kid in the public school system was something on the order of 3x the ammount it took to educate a kid at my private school. My first college class, Freshmen Comp, told the tale. I was in the class with 4 other guys that I went to school with. Everyone else in the class had attended public school. Most of them did not even know what a paragraph was. It shocked me. You would think that if the cost was 3x more, you would get better results. WRONG!

    They should just waive school taxes for people who decide to send their kids elsewhere. I do not think that vouchers are the answer. The States will screw it up.

    Oh well. I think I will go to the range now. I need to blow off some steam. :D
     
  8. winstonsmith

    winstonsmith Member

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    They took God out of schools cause it contradicts everything America stands for. You know, freedom.

    And you can't directly link gun violence in schools and the lack of prayers at the beginning of the day. That's the same reasoning that the anti's use when thinking that guns are responsible for crime.
     
  9. Marko Kloos

    Marko Kloos Moderator Emeritus

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    Actually, they didn't take God out of school at all. They only took God out of the official curriculum, as in teacher-led and mandated prayer. Anyone who thinks that "God was taken out of school" needs to visit a high school in rural Tennessee sometime. There are prayer clubs everywhere, the kids are getting bussed to a tent revival every year, and the kids are free to pray (and encouraged to do so) on their own initiative and time. School kids are free to practice their religion and read their Bibles all they want, as long as it doesn't interfere with classwork.

    Pat Robertson and his ilk want to make their flocks believe that school kids can't even mention God in school or bring their Bibles to school. That is blatant disinformation, borne from ignorance or malice.

    But anyway...

    Nope. The government's only function is to safeguard the rights of individual citizens. It cannot keep everyone safe. A free citizenry is supposed to provide for their own safety, which is where the Second Amendment comes in. Every bit of statist legislation in the last hundred years or so comes from the desire of the masses to be "kept safe". You get what you vote for, and you cannot vote yourself "safety" without incurring the bill for dozens of federal three-letter agencies.
     
  10. Don Gwinn

    Don Gwinn Moderator Emeritus

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    Any kid who wants to pray in my class can do so. He should do it quietly enough so as not to disturb others, but that's all I really care about. The difference between that and the good old days some people long for with such nostalgia is that I don't force him to say those prayers.

    I find it very hard to believe that the downfall of our civilization is tied to the failure of government agents to force children to recite prayers.

    I've said this a million times and I get tired of saying it, but I guess it has to be said again. You DO NOT WANT your government or your local school board to be in charge of your child's religious life. You might think you do, but you don't. This goes double if you're not happy with the job they do at Sex Education. It's simply none of my (the teacher's) business to interfere in your religious practices.
    Are you a Catholic? If you are, how would you like your kids to be taught prayers that neglect essential parts of your religion, like venerating Mary?
    If you're not a Catholic, how would you like your kid to be punished for refusing to pray to the Virgin Mary because your Protestant doctrine doesn't allow for it?

    If you really want your kid forced to pray in school, send him to a religious private school. Problem solved.


    "Say your prayers, Simpson. . . . because the schools can't force you like they should!"
    --Ned Flanders
     
  11. Black92LX

    Black92LX Member

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    I am a firm believer that this country was founded upon the bases of God. I understand the view of freedom of religion and that all are welcome. i guess morals would be a better way to put it. school don't teach kids morals anymore.

    in todays society it's ok to "experiment" with drugs and alcohol. it's ok to sit on your front porch drinking a 40 at 10:00am waiting for the hardworking mail man to deliver your government check.

    whoever said it about slacking is exactly correct. for some reason everyone feels that they deserve something. and if they can't figure out a reason they make on up.

    One Example of many:
    "Oh my great great grand father was a slave so i deserve cash reperations." granted i agree slavery is wrong in any sense. but the only reason your great great grandfather was a slave is because your great great uncle needed some sugar and saw it as a fair trade.

    "He shot the kids at his school becuase he got picked on." BOO HOO tell me one person that went through school and didn't get made fun of for something.

    :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
    The route this country and world is going, just frusturates me. sorry for the rants, but i try to live me life as a decent citizen (not saying i am perfect i do mess up) and try to help others that need it along the way. i just think if more people lived this way, this world would be a much better place. and something needs to change soon or we are just going to keep slipping deeper and deeper into the pit we are digging for ourselves.
     
  12. PileDriver

    PileDriver Member

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    seems to me that under the second amendment, we are individually responsible for our safety.


    if the 9.11 planes were filled with people carrying their weapons, the massacre would never have happened.
     
  13. HBK

    HBK member

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    God is against freedom? Have you read the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence?
     
  14. Black92LX

    Black92LX Member

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    i think a smaller massacre would have happend. some Saudi's would have been massacred.
     
  15. Hkmp5sd

    Hkmp5sd Member

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    Actually, no.

    As has been upheld in multiple legal cases, the government has no requirement to protect you. They protect the population at large, but are not liable for, nor required to, protect each single individual. Basically, if you dial 911 and the police never show up, you cannot sue them for failing to protect you or come to your rescue.
     
  16. David Scott

    David Scott Member

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    Telomerase said:
    And I say he's wrong. The way to fix this problem is for PARENTS to do their job of PARENTING and teach values at home. Schools should teach knowledge -- and leave it at that. Too many parents just send the kids off to school and go off on their own "active lifestyles".

    Why not dozens of different schools to choose from? Simple. It's economoically inefficient, both in actual operations and in the administration of a voucher program. Besides, if a kid goes to Islamic Academy or the Atheist Prep School on a government voucher, you're still being "taxed to support schools that contradict your values". Only thing that's changed is a new layer of bureaucracy to shuffle the money around.
     
  17. CasualShooter

    CasualShooter Member

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    Partly right. IMHO, the governments primary function is to protect us from invasion by foriegn powers. It is every citizen's duty to safeguard the rights of individual citizens and to guard against the loss of those rights to the goverment. That's why we have free elections.
    :)
     
  18. CasualShooter

    CasualShooter Member

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    IMO, Young people who think are what's going to turn this around. :)

    Skofnung has the right idea.....

    We will win this war of ideas, one mind at a time! :D
     
  19. THE 5 0

    THE 5 0 Member

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    the school wide prayer is wrong there are different religions in school beielieve it or not
    why subject muslums to christian prayers and their belifs thats jsut not right
    but every mornng saluting the flag and say the pledge is fine



    RESPECT AMERICA OR get the :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: :cuss: out
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2003
  20. longeyes

    longeyes member

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    "The Government is supposed to keep us safe, right?"

    No, the job of the Government is to keep THEM safe from US. At
    least that's what it looks like from here.:D
     
  21. Jim March

    Jim March Member

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    Well, let me turn this conversation around. BIGTIME.

    First, I'm not one of the people who whine about "the good ol' days, when America was FREE!". That's simply horsecrap.

    1) In 1856, South Carolina enacted a law criminalizing any anti-slavery speech from the pulpit by any minister, of any faith/sect, of any race. The penalty for violating the statute was death.

    2) States weren't required to honor the First Amendment until several years into the *20th* century. Throughout the 20th Century, additional bits of the BoR were "selectively incorporated" against the states by the USSC. While the mechanism to do so was a kluge from hell, it (so far) is working and the 2nd Amendment (and the grand jury requirement) are all that's left.

    3) While life in the US for white Americans was pretty good circa the 1950s, it absolutely sucked wind for anybody else.

    ----------

    In short, I see America's history with gun control and violence as primarily caused by horrific racism, for which we're still paying the price. America is now locked in a social revolution to end that racism and despite appearances, we're still grappling with it.

    Black Americans make up 15% of the population. They also account for 55% of the murderers in the US. Now, either that's because of some innate genetic issue, which I don't believe for a second, or something went disasterously wrong at a cultural level and we ain't fixed it yet.

    I'm going to include an excerpt from something else I can't talk about yet:

    =============

    Prior to the 2002 elections, Sheriff Rupf of Contra Costa County, California was being challenged for his seat by one of his deputies by the name of Scott Jacobs, a lawyer who had joined the force six years earlier for the specific purpose of being sheriff one day .

    Given the well-documented evils of Rupf, I had a conversation by phone with Jacobs running over an hour. During that conversation, I learned that when Jacobs had first joined the force, he was familiar with CCW reform as an issue in other states, he read the initial Lott/Mustard scholarship when it first came out in 1996, and was in general supportive of shall-issue CCW reform.

    Yet after six years on the force, Jacobs said that he no longer supported widespread CCW access. We some; I cited the positive results in Florida, Texas and the rest.

    Jacobs wouldn’t budge. His reasoning? In his own words: “California is too diverseâ€.

    Contra Costa County has significant “black inner-city ghetto areas†as bad as any. Jacobs had worked the jails as his first posting, and then worked the streets. He had literally become a racist due to his experiences – his distrust of the citizenry he serves had become complete.

    Rupf spent part of his law enforcement career as a street cop in the nasty areas of Contra Costa County near Richmond, and earned the street nickname of “D-Cellâ€. An interesting pun; Rupf is 6’7†tall and over 300lbs, so it’s a reference to his size. Persistent rumors say it was also a reference to his use of Maglight flashlights to beat the living crap out of people.

    Self-defense-rights activists should pay close attention to allegations and reports of “driving while black (or brown)†to track law enforcement racism. They should then ask opponents of reform if they realize that police racism in gun permit handling under a discretionary system is virtually inevitable if there is other credible evidence (“DWBâ€) of racism in the same agencies.

    -----------

    My final comments: if you're not tracking racism as a factor in both gun control and violence, you're not paying attention and *cannot* possibly come up with solutions.

    Which is why the entire "blame the gun" crowd are MORONS! :fire:
     
  22. winstonsmith

    winstonsmith Member

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    Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that god is against freedom. I'm a religious guy myself. However, this is America. Separation of church and state and all that. Sure, I pray, but on my own time.
     
  23. HBK

    HBK member

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    Yeah, I see what you mean, it shouldn't be mandantory or anything. I get that.
     
  24. Glock Glockler

    Glock Glockler Member

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    We will win this war of ideas, one mind at a time!

    Amen, brother! We all have to make efforts at doing so, simply posting online and voting pro-freedom is not enough. Victory will be on the side who makes the most and intelligent efforts, what have you done today for freedom?

    I blatantly stole this from Blain, but it's great primer that we should send out to as many people as possible. We can plant seeds of liberty at virtually no cost, so please do so if you actually want to do something about your freedom instead of just talking about it.

    http://www.isil.org/resources/introduction.swf

    How many of you have recently taken a newbe shooting recently? The more people that are positavely exposed to shooting, the more zealous RKBAers we have. It's a numbers game folks, build your numbers.

    Ok, now I'll pontificate on themes brought up in this thread.

    1) God (or Prayer) in School

    To enter into this debate is to fall in a great big bear trap, as you're fighting on the enemy's terms. The reason why is that it is all within the realm of govt schools. Why would any of you want you kid to go to a govt school? Govt schools have been absolutely disasterous, and the govt has even poisoned private and homeschooling quite a bit. America is severely lagging and our school system is the source of much of it. We are generally taught nonsense that we don't use in real life, and they don't even do a good job of that, and we're not taught the things that are most important.

    How many average Americans have even the slightest understanding of basic level economics or financial management? Are you really surprised when these twits beg the govt to provide for them, because working a dead end job while paying off their credit cards at 22% interest doesn't allow them a decent living? I know college graduates who don't understand the concept of "compound interest". What do you expect with people like this who are the next voting block?

    How many Americans even know how to change a tire? I know more than you might thing who don't, much less anything else about cars, which happen to be one of the most important things for day-to-day life in America. When my Dad went to school they taught them about cars, and about carpentry, and plumbing, etc. Even if you didn't go into that profession, the knowledge you gained was extremely valuable because you could practice preventative maintenence on your car and if you did have to bring it in to be worked on, you didn't have to walk into the mechanic's with your hands around your ankles. Just some basic knowledge about cars could save people thousands of dollars in their life.

    How much better off would we be if we could enter the workforce earlier instead of our low-mid twenties, or even late twenties if you want to be a doctor? After thinking about all the time I wasted in school on subjects I had absolutely no interest in and never used, I'm astounded. If all I want is to be an engineer, why should I have to take college level courses in sociology, anthropology, historical geology, and a host of others that I don't need for engineering? If we cut out all the nonsense we could probably have solid engineers in their late-teens and early twenties. How much of an economic gain would that be for us if we could eliminate all that waste and get right to what's important? Sure, the teacher's unions wouldn't like it,because they'd have to compete for jobs like everybody else but I'll get over that in a few minutes.

    The solution is to privatize the education system. If we did that, those of us that are religously inclined can have schools reinforce religous teaching to our kids, and those that are not religous can skip that part. That way, Marko and I can stop fighting with each other and continue our fight against our common enemy: big govt! Govt uses issues like this as a divide and conquer mechanism, keep us fighting on the little stuff while they trap us on the big stuff.

    Much of our decline as a nation is due to the eroding morality of the people. It doesn't even phase most people that the are essentially receiving goods and services that were stolen from others via govt, so why should it bother them to murder, enslave, and steal from others directly instead of using the govt as a middleman? Someone of true moral charachter will have a problem with such behavior, whether nor not the govt is involved.

    If you truely want a free nation you must first have a just and moral people, for that is the only type of people that freedom is suitable for. That, I think, is the best reason for having the govt out of the religion business, the schooling business and the welfare business, and why we should push immediately for private schooling.

    That's why we have free elections

    How sure are you? Last time I went to vote I was not asked for my ID, so is it possible that voter fraud is taking place? In 2000 the local DemocratScheisse actually has his minions go to a nearby college and got out of state student to vote straight Democrat, the icing on the cake was that they 'assisted' mentally retarded people in voting by going into the voting booths with them.

    How do we really know that the results from an election are genuine, and they're not just pulling some type of Stalinist fraud behind our backs? We can mobilize as many people as we want to take action, but unless we oversee the ballot counting process and make it public we will be at the mercy of corrupt politicians.

    I could go on a rant about why Universal Sufferage is a terrible idea and is ruining our country, but I'll save that for another thread.
     
  25. CZ-100

    CZ-100 Member

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    And thats a BAD Thing????:what:
     
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