The grip

[Surf]

See some old dogs and old school conversation. Nothing wrong with that because I am in my mid 40's and an old dog also. My formal training in my early years was with a revolver and I carried one daily for a few years. I still teach the revolver, but IMO the old school grips belong on revolvers and not on pistols. Old dogs can learn new tricks.

Here is my application of the thumbs forward or modern combat grip in a competition type of drill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blFXUH-SIk8

Some say it is not a good grip for fighting or practical applications which is BS. We use it all the time as a default. Both shooters in this video use the grip. I am the front man in the 2 man drill and use the grip exclusively in combat style shooting and teach it almost exclusively.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVGoJw0nhwk

In depth detailed discussion of the progression of grips to the current modern combat or thumbs forward grip.

Old school revolver, crossed thumb and locked thumb grips and how Old Time trainers brought a revolver grip to a pistol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTc5OG0AI64

Mechanics of how the actual physics and what happens during recoil with the pistol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRcxgAEn7zU

How to get into the modern combat grip / thumbs forward grip and how it counters or helps to manage recoil.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdDFA9EtFc4

I also have a few video's on how I think a shooter should run a trigger.

 

[Blackstone]

This is probably the most valuable thread for me that I've seen on THR

 

[EvilGenius]

This is probably the most valuable thread for me that I've seen on THR

+1!

This and the FAQs in the shotgun section.

 

[saltydog452]

Lots of information, but a couple of roadblocks

My first stumbling block has to do with the initial grip. That grip purchase occurs in the holster and should be as solid as possible considering urgency of the moment ...Yes?

If true, during presentation, the soon-to-be shooter is bringing the weapon to bear on the threat and grabbing a glimpse of the sights. The support hand, if available, is about to assist in making this happen. The support hand isn't there just yet but is working on it.

About that initial grip, is the shooter now supposed to alter that grasp that was achieved in the holster so that the aft portion of the support hand palm comes into play on the mainspring housing? Is there really the pad of two palms on the MSH? Is the thumb of the strong hand and the palm supposed to make way for the thumb of the support hand? That'd be my second stumbling block.

Something else that might be worth mention could be that the area below the trigger guard on a single stack doesn't have room for 4 fingers. So the pinky gets to hang out below the magazine well opening or the index goes to the trigger guard.

Thsanks for the posts and they have helped me get a grip on the subject and, no disrespect intended, but can someone help this mentally challanged dummy see the light?

Thanks,

salty

 

[JRH6856]

Is there really the pad of two palms on the MSH?

No. Where did you get that idea? (Look at the pics 9mmEpiphany posted earlier)

 

[saltydog452]

It kinda/sorta starts on the first page and flows from there.

It was said and repeated that most of the grip occurs with the weak hand. Even up to 70 %. I can't, and don't, disagree with that. I don't understand it though. My weak hand might be 70% weaker than the strong hand, it isn't 70% stronger.

I understood that the grip occured in the holster, not in transition.

The gent in post 67 used a double wide to illustrate how the pad of the palm in the support hand got some purchase on the rear of the mainspring housing. That notion semed to have been accepted in the following posts.

I wasn't thinking about range contests when the previous post was typed. My views might be skewed in a different direction than yours.

salty

 

[9mmepiphany]

About that initial grip, is the shooter now supposed to alter that grasp that was achieved in the holster so that the aft portion of the support hand palm comes into play on the mainspring housing? Is there really the pad of two palms on the MSH? Is the thumb of the strong hand and the palm supposed to make way for the thumb of the support hand? That'd be my second stumbling block.

Nope, once I've established my Master Grip with my strong hand it doesn't shift. There isn't a need to make room for the support hand on the MSH as the support hand shouldn't be behind it as much as filling the space left by the strong hand.

Something else that might be worth mention could be that the area below the trigger guard on a single stack doesn't have room for 4 fingers. So the pinky gets to hang out below the magazine well opening or the index goes to the trigger guard.

It is hard to address this question without knowing the pistol you are referring to (surely you're not talking about your SIG 228) or your hand size. The gun in Post #72 is a Springfield Armory EMP...about the same size as a Kahr CW9...and I don't have a pinky hanging below the magazine. Bear in mind that you shouldn't be pulling to the rear with your support hand...any rearward pressure of the pinky is at a slight upward angle as you roll your support wrist forward

 

[9mmepiphany]

It kinda/sorta starts on the first page and flows from there.

It was said and repeated that most of the grip occurs with the weak hand. Even up to 70 %. I can't, and don't, disagree with that. I don't understand it though. My weak hand might be 70% weaker than the strong hand, it isn't 70% stronger.

It isn't the strength (more accurately pressure) that your hand is able to generate, it is the percentile of the total gripping force applied to the gun. Think of it not as gripping more with your support hand, but gripping less with your strong hand

I understood that the grip occured in the holster, not in transition.

It does

The gent in post 67 used a double wide to illustrate how the pad of the palm in the support hand got some purchase on the rear of the mainspring housing. That notion semed to have been accepted in the following posts.

If you watch at the 2:45 mark, you see how he says he gives up that purchase for a better grip by pronating his wrist

I wasn't thinking about range contests when the previous post was typed. My views might be skewed in a different direction than yours.

Why would you think they were different?

 

[JRH6856]

The master hand grip is established before the draw commences and should not change while the gun is out of the holster except during a reload.

The master hand is the primary contact with the pistol. Once established, the master hand grip should be sufficiently strong to operate the pistol and achieve accurate hits. The role of the support hand is to stabalize the grip to improve accuracy and recoil control fo reduce the time between shots.

When in use, the support hand provides perhaps 70% of the gripping force, but it is primarily gripping the master hand, not the pistol. The only parts of the support hand which are in contact with the pistol is the index finger at the base of the trigger guard, and, depending on the size of the hands and the size of the pistol, there may be some contact between the base of the thumb and the grip if there is sufficient space between the fingertips and the thumbpad of the master hand. Some part of the thumb may or may not be in contact with the frame above the trigger guard. Most of the support hand is in contact with the master hand.

 

[saltydog452]

Other than a completely unwarranted assumption, there was no real reason for thinking that perspective might be different.

I don't compete, so this is a different arena for me and I'm just trying to gather in some useful information that I understand.

It just 'seemed' that the comments might have range focus rather than on the downtown parking garage.

Mistaken assumption, my bad. Skill set comes from practice.

salty

 

[9mmepiphany]

The shooting technique...speaking not only of the grip...is a constant. The goal is to most efficiently...and consistently...put rounds on target at the quickest rate possible, while maintaining accuracy.

Once this fundamental skill is learned, you can either follow the path to competition or defensive shooting. You need to be quite far along the path, before they diverge much...and even then it is mostly a matter of equipment and not technique

 

[Doghandler]

This equipment vs. technique proposition should be a good philosophical debate.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Not really.

There is no technique shortcoming, as opposed to a physical one, which can be cured with equipment. You can mask it, but you can't cure it