The HP-38/W231 Syndrome?

Status
Not open for further replies.

kcofohio

Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
5,349
Location
NW Ohio
Many here remember the thread about Hodgdon's remarks about the St. Marks, Fla. powder plant. And how they would like to phase out HP-38/W231 due to waste and slow production of the product.

My observations are strictly from watching stock online. I have given up on getting reloading supplies from the LGS.

With a little over a year of steady increase of smokeless powder availability. There are several powders that remain at large or are rarely seen. But other, newer powders are in stock, or are replenished within a reasonable time frame.

From Alliant, I don't see, or rarely see Unique, 2400, or Bullseye. But somebody has, or will shortly have BE-86, the Dots, and MP300 in stock.

Hodgdon, rarely seen are WST, Clays, and to some extent, HP-38/W231. And W231 isn't that old. I have a manual from 1973 that list W230, W231s predecessor. But any given day you can find most of their other handgun/shotgun powders online.

Western Powders, try finding AA-2 and 4100. But you can find plenty of Competition, #5, #7, #9, Silhouette, Zip, to name a few.

Lets face it, now we have more powders coming from Europe that can compete price wise with the North American producers. Powders from Spain, France, and The Czech Republic.

As with Hodgdon alluding to the eventual demise of Hp-38/W231. What are the chances that the other powder suppliers/makers may be planning the phase-out of older less efficient to produce powders? Powders that many reloaders hold near and dear to them.

I may be missing something here, as I'm fairly new to the reloading scene. But it just seems that there has been enough relief in the supply line that the above mentioned powders should have been showing up more.
 
W231/HP-38 have been my reference 9mm/40S&W/45ACP powder for decades and even used it for most of my match loads. There are powders that produced more accurate loads but the milder recoil impulse from W231/HP-38 over faster burning powders kept me using W231/HP-38, especially for 40S&W. When other shooters complained about snappiness of 40S&W, I would say "What snappy recoil?" and let them shoot my pistol/loads which recoiled like 9mm.

If W231/HP-38 production indeed comes to an end, I won't be caught off guard. Thanks to the last two component shortages, I have a list of powders I could use instead of W231/HP-38 for my loads.

- Red Dot/Promo for general range practice/plinking loads for 9mm/45ACP

- Herco for more accurate 40S&W loads

- BE-86 for even more accurate 9mm/40S&W loads

- If I can't find above powders, I can readily use Zip/Green Dot/Universal and won't have much issues with WSF/Power Pistol.

Thanks to Recob's, I have been able to stock back up on my preferred powders. When W231/HP-38 came in stock, I actually did not buy any so others could buy. When I use up my current 8 lb container and can't find any W231/HP-38, I will simply use other powders I have developed accurate loads for.
 
I'm seeing the waves too. I'm a material buyer for a major corporation. I tend to track commodities and you can see the demand and production runs if you track multiple sources both online and brick and mortar. That being said I have noticed alot more regular supplies of the more energetic powders, H110, AA 7 & 9, ect....Bulls-eye and HP38 seem to have their periods of availability, but I think we will see BE-86 regularly for a while. I didn't see the AA#2 dropping off the face of the earth. That one kinda hurt me.
 
HP-38 is out there. I just bought three pounds (left one on the shelf) at the local Cabelas. They also had Universal which is now back after a long absence. I think it just goes in cycles. I don't put much stock in the rumors over HP-38 being discontinued, but that's just me.
 
When my Dad was reloading in the 1950's and I was a small boy,
all the handloaders worried about WWII military powders drying up.
"When it's all gone, what are we going to do?"

Since then, the canister powder industry went viral. Rather than
a dozen non-surplus powders, we now have more than 100.
Way more than 100!

So I look around at more than 100 powders, and someone is worried
that 5 or 10 of them might not be available any more, and they post...
"When it's all gone, what are we going to do?"

Pretty much exactly as bds posts. Explore powders and find alternatives.
Explore them now, fill your log books with loads that work for you.
With lots of accurate loads in your log, and lots of powders
waiting on the shelf, you'll never ask that question again.
 
Went by my local gun shop and they had 1 lb and 8 lb jugs of HP-38. Picked up two 1 pounders. Just got it in a few days ago.
 
I have 14 lbs of HP-38 all bought in the last year....as well as 4 lbs of Clays and 10 lbs of Unique....and just in the last two weeks I saw BE-86 for the very first time.

Watching online stock is not a true Barometer...most popular powders will sell out real fast once a vendor list it in stock...you sometimes literally have to be in the right place at the right time, just like you do locally
 
Are powders manufactured like pistols?

The pistol maker will produce one model for a while, then switch to another model, etc.
Often they produce several models at once, but very few makers can produce their entire catalog at any given moment.
So they are always making something, but the version you want may be unavailable for months or even a couple of years.
 
Pretty much exactly as bds posts. Explore powders and find alternatives.
Explore them now, fill your log books with loads that work for you.
With lots of accurate loads in your log, and lots of powders
waiting on the shelf, you'll never ask that question again.

Oh, I've done my exploring! :D

What I was trying to get across, isn't so much about HP-38, and the "rumors", as it has to do with 100+ year old powder technology, and would it soon be replaced in the near future.

While watching powder inventories, I have considered the future of other powders after the discussion in this thread;http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=785777&highlight=hp38
 
Could it be you never find Bullseye, Unique, 2400, and HP38-W231 on the shelves is because.

People are buying it faster then they can stock the shelves!!!!!!!!!

rc
 
I bought 8 lbs of HP 38 a month or so ago. This rumor has been posted before has it actually ever been verified?? Something about old school tech?? Waste stream or something,

Have never seen any of the "new" stuff like CFE?

Well the new school tech say Alliants BE 86 I have never seen it.?

Hell they promote all these new products but were are they let alone the old ones?
 
seems like they are at least giving ample warning of the powder being phased out. I see hp38 pop up online somewhere 2-3 times a month. HP38 and w231 are usually always available at the gunshow for $180+ tax per keg(I'll pass at that price). I found a second keg on armslist yesterday for $140 that I jumped on. BUUURP I'm full. Im no expert but with how many new powders are being introduced, they have to be discounting atleast a couple here and there. It only makes sense to get rid of the ones that cost them the most. 6-7 years from now when I start running low on HP38, I'm sure I will be able to find something to fill it's place. In fact, I have a hard time finding a pistol powder that I simply do not like besides powders like 700x or unique but that is only because they dont meter well due to their shape.
 
In the past I have made the mistake if allowing my stocks of my favorite powders to run too low only to find out they were then discontinued. The last one I goofed on was SR4759 but luckily AA5744 is a very good replacement. I have 10lbs of W231 and when I get down to 8 lbs and open one of the two 4lb jugs I have I will buy another. I will be stocking up on HS-6 as soon as I can because I have a feeling it will be gone sooner than later too. I just hope by holding on to the old I don't pass on newer better powders but hey, I like W231 and W540/(HS-6). I use W296/H110 but I'm not married to it like the two others.
 
Around here HP-38 was one of the first powders that returned to the shelves after the panic. It's the traditional Alliant powders I don't see in quantity. I agree with rc that the main reason I don't see them is because someone else saw them first.
 
Distribution is spotty at best. I found 8 lb HP38 in time to keep going with it for standard loads. I was already using Bullseye for powderpuff loads and would have just gone to that for all non-magnums if the HP38 hadn't shown up.

A friend let himself run out so we went shopping with a list of 26 reasonably suitable pistol powders. He ended up with CFE-P which he now prefers.


There is more movement in the powder business than is immediately obvious.
The Clays family is now made by IMR in Canada after ADI Australia announced they were changing powder formulations.
700X is now made by Alliant.
Accurate is now getting a lot (but not all) of their powder from St Marks.
And that is just the name brand stuff, there is powder coming in from all over; Lovex, Rio, and another attempt by Vectan.
 
There were 10 lbs worth of unique on a shelf a few months back before I started loading for pistols and knew what it was. After hearing everyone talk about it, I regret not buying some.
 
Availability is regional. All the powders that have been listed as not available I have been able to buy over the past few months. W231 is one of the last powders I was able to find. But now it's on the shelves right now. So is Universal, Unique and Bullseye. BE-86 is all over and I could have bought it consistently if I wanted to. Availability is regional.

Who started the W231 rumor? Hodgdon hasn't confirmed it. They have been upfront w/ what powders they were discontinuing, entire SR line. They placed a military size order for Clays powders. And those powders are due for reformulation which is confirmed by the manufacturer. Until I hear it from the manufacturer it's just another internet rumor.
 
Availability is regional. All the powders that have been listed as not available I have been able to buy over the past few months. W231 is one of the last powders I was able to find. But now it's on the shelves right now. So is Universal, Unique and Bullseye. BE-86 is all over and I could have bought it consistently if I wanted to. Availability is regional.

Who started the W231 rumor? Hodgdon hasn't confirmed it. They have been upfront w/ what powders they were discontinuing, entire SR line. They placed a military size order for Clays powders. And those powders are due for reformulation which is confirmed by the manufacturer. Until I hear it from the manufacturer it's just another internet rumor.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=9986937&postcount=13

During the process of making the old powders, the waste stream created is huge compared to the waste stream of the new chemistry powders. Chemical waste is very expensive to get rid of. So, the plant wants to phase out the old chemistry powders and replace them with new chemistry powders. While they are still making 231, the amount is being reduced and the amount of new powder such as Titegroup and Longshot is being increased.

This is just one example from an older thread about the possibility of that powder being phased out. Though I called Hodgdon shortly after that thread was started. The guy from Hodgdon said that HP-38 will still be around for the foreseeable future.

I don't have much of a selection locally to purchase powders, primers, or bullets. So I visit about 8 websites almost daily. Powder Valley, Midsouth Shooters, Recob's. etc. I have purchased 8 lb. of HP-38 and CFE Pistol. 4 lb. of WST and Silhouette. And a few 1 lb. of other odd powders. But I still look for the favorites of some of the guys I work with.

My original thoughts wasn't so much about the short supply of HP-38/W231. But also about other powders that I'm never seeing in stock on line and whether there is a possibility they may be phased out as newer (reformulated) powders become available.

But I see with the many post, that there are more powders than I realized at the local levels.

I would really like to see 2400 become in-stock.
 
I also spoke with a Hodgon's rep a couple weeks ago. He also stated that there's no plan to discontinue HP38. he also said that for the manufacture there are other similar powders that they can make in greater volume and at less cost, but HP38 is still popular enough to warrant making it.

I'm sitting on 14 pounds now, and will buy some whenever I see it.....

Chuck
 
While overpriced IMO, my local Bass Pro seems to always have Unique, Bullseye, Red Dot and 2400. #1 jugs only and most average around 28-32 per pound.
 
I also spoke with a Hodgon's rep a couple weeks ago. He also stated that there's no plan to discontinue HP38. he also said that for the manufacture there are other similar powders that they can make in greater volume and at less cost, but HP38 is still popular enough to warrant making it.

I wonder why they don't port over 231/HP38 specs to the new and improved process.
Everybody else changes processes or even contract manufacturers as suits them, why doesn't St Marks?
 
Toprudder... I see those jars of 7625 and 4756, will miss those two.
Not the end of the world by any means but I will miss them.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top