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The illogic of universal background checks.

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Leanwolf, Jan 19, 2013.

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  1. meanmrmustard

    meanmrmustard Member

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    How do you know that?

    Edit to Add: Yea, you lost me at left anarchist.
     
  2. Clean97GTI

    Clean97GTI Member

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    We are making unfounded declarative statements in this thread.
     
  3. meanmrmustard

    meanmrmustard Member

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    As stated, keep the left AND the anarchist stuff. However, I do agree that rather than me having to register or report EVERY arm I purchase, I do not have a problem carrying a card that shows proof positive that I'm not a criminal.

    But, then we see a surge in fake IDs?
     
  4. Solo

    Solo Member

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    I agree that ID cards would be too easily faked. You really would need a database in order to effectively check people.
     
  5. meanmrmustard

    meanmrmustard Member

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    True, but anything can be faked or bought illegally. The ones that suffer having their business known by all are the ones that follow the law.

    Finger print data base might work, but to me that's super-invasive.
     
  6. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

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    Actually, what's ridiculous is someone who claims to hold a philosophy that is based on limited beaurocracy actually clamoring for another government intrusion. That and the whole socialism thing. When you have to come up with cute little bullet points to differentiate yourself from state socialism, well, maybe you're just an old fashioned red.
     
  7. meanmrmustard

    meanmrmustard Member

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    To whom is this directed?

    If its me, explain. I'm a blue blood, but I love my country, not its "leaders".

    If its Clean...his political views are his business, I'm just funning him. We needn't attack views or posters.
     
  8. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

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    It is directed squarely at CleanGT1. His views become relevant when he first flaunts socialism as a thing to be admired and then seeks to marginalize and decry those who disagree with him as "unreasonable".

    I've stated that everyone has a bias. My bias is coming from a generation that would find it perfectly acceptable to slap someone in the mouth for admitting to being a communist or socialist. And rather than debating the fine points of difference between the two, I'll state the simple difference. Socialism is communism with a smiley face.
     
  9. Solo

    Solo Member

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    So you'd slap Orwell or Kalashnikov in the face? :evil:
     
  10. meanmrmustard

    meanmrmustard Member

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    Orwell, yes.

    Kalishnakov? Are you freaking nuts?
     
  11. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

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    There's a difference there. Comrade Mikhail comes from the same stock. He'd expect you to punch him in the mouth, then he'd punch you (or me) right back for being a capitalist pig. Remember what I said about every has a bias? Orwell, though, would be shocked that you'd take such extreme action to one of such an intellect. In other words, we'd act like a weenie. And often did.

    ETA: Misread (actually just a brain fart) and commented on George Orwell completely incorrectly. Eyeball read "Orwell", brain went somewhere else. Leaving mistake here so posts 40 and 41 make sense.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2013
  12. AlexanderA

    AlexanderA Member

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    In all likelihood, the way this will go down is that all transfers (except within the immediate family) will have to go through an FFL. The reason it will happen this way, rather than a less onerous alternative, is because of the absolute intransigence of the organized gun lobby, which precludes the exploration of other ideas. For example, you could open NICS to private sellers, using a toll-free number or a Web page. The only information that needed to be input would positive ID of the buyer. No information about the gun would be needed. An incentive for sellers to use this system would immunity from civil/criminal responsibility if the gun is later misused. And so on ...
     
  13. Hoppes Love Potion

    Hoppes Love Potion Member

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    If 93% of people want this, let them amend the 2nd Amendment to say, "shall not be infringed except during every transaction."

    Otherwise, no.
     
  14. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

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    Why would a law prohibiting private sales allow transfer within a family?

    I disagree with all restriction except what a seller imposes on himself, but thinking a government mandated background check will exclude transfers from father to son, etc. is naive, in my opinion.
     
  15. Solo

    Solo Member

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    Huh?
     
  16. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

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    I had a brain fart. Was doing some other reading and my eyeball took a hard left at George Orwell. As a result, my previous post was a complete mischaracterization of Mr. Orwell. Unintentional, but wrong. Good catch, Solo. The other guy (actually a woman) I was thinking of was a "soft core" socialist. George Orwell was not at all.
     
  17. Solo

    Solo Member

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    Don't worry, it happens to all of us.
     
  18. k_dawg

    k_dawg Member

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    Only if it is a compromise, not a conceed.

    Mandate the requirements on the 4473 [ current revision ] be the maximum requirement to own any federally lawful firearm in any State, County or City.
    Make it "Shall Issue" with a limit of 3 business days.
    Make it "Without fee/charge/tax/etc" to prevent it being a Poll Tax.

    That would really help out alot of lawful citizens in DC, Chicago, NYC etc.
     
  19. leadcounsel

    leadcounsel member

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    The mistake is thinking it's based on logic. It's not. It's a tactical slippery slope encroachment on gun rights.

    The "loophole" of FTF only exists because of background checks. You could get rid of the "loophole" by eliminating background checks altogether!

    Background checks, tightening the noose, making more people "prohibited persons" etc.

    The goal is less ownership, less households with guns, etc.
     
  20. barnbwt

    barnbwt Member

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    Now there's an angle I hadn't thought of. Just like a vehicle transfer in many places, you gotta pay tax on the transfered item. Good catch. This ought to turn at least a few cheapskates off the fence :)

    TCB
     
  21. Clean97GTI

    Clean97GTI Member

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    Would it not have been easier to simply say you don't know the differences between socialism and communism?
     
  22. Solo

    Solo Member

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    I wouldn't expect most people to know about libertarian socialism. About the only prominent one I can think of is Noam Chomsky.
     
  23. gunnutery

    gunnutery Member

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    I think as far as the OP's idea of registration and validation by physically witnessing and recording each gun and owner, is only misguided when sometime in between checks, you could have "a terrible boating accident." I'm not saying some sort of registration (or an attempt to register) of guns by all law abiding gun owners isn't in the works, but that's assuming that House Republicans will allow FTF, UBGC to be recorded with serial numbers, make, model, etc.

    My wife is very supportive of gun rights, in fact we agree on every issue except this one. I oppose UBGC, for the simple fact that it adds extra travel to FFL, extra cost to pay FFL (whose transfer fees differ GREATLY), and all around inconvenience.

    Currently in Iowa, pistol FTF sales require that the buyer have a "permit to buy pistols" witch requires that a background check be done to get the permit. Some private sellers ask that people show a permit to buy pistols when buying rifles and shotguns too, just so they feel better about the buyer.

    While I don't completely agree with the permit to buy system, I think it's a nice hands off governmental approach in that they don't care what you go buy after you have the permit, no records other than a privately held bill of sale are kept, but even that isn't a requirement. I guess where I don't really like the thought of the permit system, is that you shouldn't have to get permission to acquire something that you have a right to own. Perhaps I'm getting stuck on the word "permit" but I don't know what else you'd call it.
     
  24. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

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    Background checks are great, if you choose, as a seller or buyer, to use them. You can make use of a FFL even in a private transaction if you wish to. Claiming that it's inconvenient and a hassle and not worth your extra dollars exposes the hypocrasy that you are willing to cram it down others throats but not front a few bucks to do it on your own (not directed at anyone in particular, but mandatory BGC proponents in general).

    When you have mamdatory BGC, how do you go about enforcing it? It will require registration to ensure that no sales or transfers have taken place in violation of the law. Which means further intrusion into your life to inspect your private property for violations.

    I use guns as a form of recreation. I was out rabbit hunting this morning. I use guns as a defense of and for my family. I use guns as defense for my self when out and about. I have used guns as a profession, carrying them both in the employ of the U.S. government and a private company. They are nothing more than a tool. A very effective tool and there is a skill that goes into making fine examples that fascinates me. But they are a tool, none the less. It's time we stopped trying to throw one another under the bus and treat the subject rationally. If you wanted to reduce deaths by restricting ownership of an item, guns is way down on the list. So it's time to look at the motivation of the anti-gun crowd and formulate a strategy from there.

    As an aside, I do know the difference between socialism and communism. I also know that they end the same way due to human nature. If you removed human nature from the equation, socialism might well be the perfect form of government. But since you cannot do that, it is a failed proposition. Better to deal with the facts as they are before you than what you wish they were. Sort of like the debate on more gun control. In a perfect world it might make a difference. But it isn't, it won't, so I refuse to don the rose colored glasses and sell out.
     
  25. Solo

    Solo Member

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    According to Karl Marx, socialism is the step society goes through before reaching communism. The Marxist theory of history states that human society started out from "primitive communism", where we lived in small tribes and all property was communal, and from then advanced onto to a slave society, where classes first started (along with slavery), feudalism, and capitalism. He theorized that society would progress towards socialism, and then finally communism.

    The difference between the two is that in socialism, the means of production are publicly owned, and wealth is distributed according to one's amount of work. In communism, the means of production are publicly owned, and wealth is distributed according to one's needs. In addition, socialism is an economic system while communism is an economic and political system. Thus, communist societies use socialist economics, but a socialist country is not necessarily politically communist.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2013
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