The Jeff Cooper Club

[Sam1911]

That would be these: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&b...a=X&ei=bV4jUZbBPOXj0QHxyYGYAQ&ved=0CC0Q8gEwAA

 

[Sam1911]

On this topic, I've often wondered: has modern conventional wisdom established a point where "bigger≠better" is not helpful? E.g., while 9mm cartridge construction is a proven reliable platform these days, is a .30; a .25? Is it purely a matter of cartridge construction, or are there limitations to the minimum size for effective self defense use?

Sorry, forgot to address that one -- and it probably should be (and certainly has been, many times) the subject of a thread of its own.

There are various tests for, and theories of, cartridge effectiveness. The FBI's minimum penetration standard is probably the most accepted and used.

The generally accepted balance point appears to be that .380 ACP is just on the edge of "enough," but is usually relegated to a secondary, backup, or deep concealment weapon. .38 Special (especially the '+P' loadings which more closely resemble the original loads), 9mm, and on up seem to work as well as a handgun round generally can work. (Remember, 80% of gun shot victims survive.)

The really small stuff -- .32, .25, .22LR, and so on -- is not usually trusted to perform as well, though any of them can certainly do the job if pressed into service. Again, extreme deep concealment, tiny guns, contact-distance shots, and so forth.

A few of the new oddball rounds like FN's 5.7 really have a following these days with folks generating data to support their utility for defensive use -- and some claiming that their velocity gives them an edge over 9mm, for example. The jury is definitely still out on those.

Again, of course, any CAN do the job. Shot placement is King. Penetration is Queen. Expansion/diameter is sort of the debated wild card. Everything else is much less important, except to marketers.

 

[arizona_cards_11]

I recall in at least one of his Cooper's Corner articles that he advocated issuance of .44 Special revolvers as the weapon of choice for police officers. Noting the propensity for LEOs to spray-fire in confrontations, he thought that the LEOs would be adequately protected by the revolver, and that the general public would be better served by having fewer rounds going down-range.


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I support that!

 

[9mmepiphany]

So what does it mean then?

I believe that it means that he was informed of the occurrence/incident/response and he believed the creditability of the source.

I'm a bit surprised that it wasn't phrased as, "We have observed..."; however, it could also mean that he saw the technique demonstrated on a range after it had been used.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Thanks Sam1911 for pointing out some of the Cooper disagreement points. I agree with you on some but disagree with you on others. It would make for nice beer or fireside chat in person.

 

[langloisandy]

Very cool... I am an avid Cooper fan myself! (I also run the Scout Rifle Forum!).

Thanks for starting this section.

Andy

 

[BigG]

I read em all back when he was posting them. JC was a real innovator and very interesting to read.

 

[Baba Louie]

A link to Col Cooper's Commentaries for those who knoweth not.

http://myweb.cebridge.net/mkeithr/Jeff/

Some good reading therein. I also highly recommend ALL of his books. They make great gifts for like minded friends and family members.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Lol. I just looked at my signature line I've been using for quite some time. I guess you could call me a Cooper fan. I've also been lucky in that Loui Awerbuck comes to the bay area often and I've taken a bunch of his classes. On occasion he tells a good Cooper story.

 

[chriske]

The photographs of Mr Cooper shooting a 1911 .45 auto are noteworthy:
If you find one taken from his left side, you'll see that he hooked his left thumb over his right.
I do as well, but I never was as good as he was. & never will be.

 

[Sam1911]

If you find one taken from his left side, you'll see that he hooked his left thumb over his right.

Ah ha! So there's another bit of technique surpassed through further development.

(Not that I recall the thumbs question being a fundamental of the Modern Technique.)

 

[Frank Ettin]

The photographs of Mr Cooper shooting a 1911 .45 auto are noteworthy:
If you find one taken from his left side, you'll see that he hooked his left thumb over his right.
I do as well, but I never was as good as he was. & never will be.

Which is indeed the way the grip was taught at Gunsite when I took API 250 in 2002.

 

[9mmepiphany]

The photographs of Mr Cooper shooting a 1911 .45 auto are noteworthy:
If you find one taken from his left side, you'll see that he hooked his left thumb over his right.
I do as well, but I never was as good as he was. & never will be.

Gunsite taught the thumbs up grip. The intent was to keep the thumbs off the gun to not influence unwanted pressure.

This evolved into the grip you see, as the correct placement of the right thumb is riding the thumb safety. If you bend your left thumb down, it opens your field of vision....and is works best with the Weaver arm geometry...but it compromises the contact between the gun and the support hand.

This is not the same as the Thumbs Forward Grip. This is Thumbs Up Grip w/ thumbs pointing forward


A correct Thumbs Forward Grip pronates the support hand forward to extend it's thumb towards the muzzle...notice the angle of the knuckles

 

[Hangingrock]

Quoting from Gunsite Academy website” We offer multiple levels of instruction in handgun, carbine, shotgun, bolt action rifle and precision rifle”. It would appear Copper’s American Pistol Institute of 1976 was a different vision than Ray Chapman’s Chapman Academy of 1979 and Massad Ayoob’s Lethal Force Institute of 1981.

If my information is correct after Ray Chapman’s death in 2008 followed by medical problems of his chief assistant/operations manager the Chapman Academy fell from prominence. From what I see it is now associated with the Green Valley Rifle& Pistol Club and offers an abbreviated training schedule.

Massad Ayoob in regard to LFI quotation “The separation was based strictly on differing business philosophies between myself and the other major partner in LFI. I expect LFI to continue the proven curriculum that was developed over 28 years, and with many certified instructors I’ve personally trained, I expect Lethal Force Institute to continue to provide top-quality professional training around the country.” At the present Ayoob teaches through Massad Ayoob Group.

Cooper’s American Pistol Institute is now Gunsite Academy a 2000 acre facility teaching multiple firearms disciplines. I understand that when Cooper sold the facility he came to regret his decision so much so that he recommended Clint Smith’s Thunder Ranch over Gunsite until the individual he sold it to relinquished ownership. Cooper was much more positive towards the new owner of facility than the previous he had sold it to.

The Modern Technique that Cooper espoused seems to be a point of argumentative discussion. But it would appear that Cooper was much more than that in regards to various firearms disciplines’. That said maybe he was an excellent communicator with a better/different business model than others had.