The Lee Harvey Oswald Shot(s)

[Potatohead]

The time it would've taken to fire these shots is supposedly 3 shots in 8 seconds using a Carcano 6.5x52mm bolt action rifle. I'm not trying to say yay or nay on whether or not it was actually him who made the shot. I'm just wondering how difficult the shot was to make. Seems like a hard shot but I'm far from an experienced rifleman. Who better to ask thank a bunch of experienced riflemen like yourselves! I'm sorry I havent found a lot of info (i just searched again) about the actual range, speed of motorcade, wind, and all that other ballistic stuff but maybe some folks who know a little about that shot could help there..Surely RC knows somethin here!

No tin foil hats allowed!

 

[Potatohead]

Cmon, surely somebody has an opinion about this. (I guess if I would've included some actual details about the shot, it would've been helpful)..




ok, ok, fine...tin foil hats ARE allowed!

 

[shadowman53]

check out this site...it will take you 1/2 just to read this guys resume
He has the ans.www.riflewarrior.com

 

[rsrocket1]

The # of shots in time is not much of a problem, I thought the range was somewhere around 60-70 yards. If you tried to shoot at an 8" bullseye at that range with a scope, I think it wouldn't be too hard to get 1 out of 3 in the ring even if you did it hastily.

...you lost your patience after a whole 16 minutes after your OP? I guess you really are in a hurry.

 

[rule303]

Well, the distance was given at less than 100 yards. The motorcade was moving pretty slow, so I doubt any lead would have been necessary. The rifle was scoped, and one of three shots was perfect. I don't think it would have been a particularly hard shot to make. The Carcano, while not a tack driver is certainly capable of that kind of accuracy. I have owned a few, and they are as accurate as just about any other battle rifle of the era, and faster to operate than a Mauser or Mosin.

 

[19-3Ben]

I really hope this doesn't stray into a conspiracy theory thread, so we can keep it open.

Look, I've seen new shooters who have never fired a gun before, pick up a pistol and nail one through the bullseye at 10 yards.

I think a discussion about LHO's skill, and the abilities of the rifle, would not be fruitful unless we also take into account that sometimes dumb luck plays into it. Heck, Hinckley nearly killed Reagan with a .22LR from a revolver that most people on this forum would not even want as a paperweight, and conversely Teddy Roosevelt was saved from a .38 to the chest, by his campaign speech that just happened to be folded up in a jacket pocket right where the bullet struck.

Ultimately, trying to predict the likelihood of a shot being possible and/or likelihood of effectiveness is a tricky, and very murky field to try to navigate because there are just so many variables.

 

[mdemetz]

Already a thread here;
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=724592&highlight=oswald

 

[Ranger Roberts]

It's not difficult for most hunters to make those shots. Add in the fact that Oswald was a Marine and a pretty accomplished shooter... no problem at all.

 

[Potatohead]

The # of shots in time is not much of a problem, I thought the range was somewhere around 60-70 yards. If you tried to shoot at an 8" bullseye at that range with a scope, I think it wouldn't be too hard to get 1 out of 3 in the ring even if you did it hastily.

...you lost your patience after a whole 16 minutes after your OP? I guess you really are in a hurry.

I just wrestled the computer away from my wife and itll only be minutes before she wrestles it back. (shes 5'2" 95lb but packs a mean punch)

 

[Potatohead]

I really hope this doesn't stray into a conspiracy theory thread, so we can keep it open.

Look, I've seen new shooters who have never fired a gun before, pick up a pistol and nail one through the bullseye at 10 yards.

I think a discussion about LHO's skill, and the abilities of the rifle, would not be fruitful unless we also take into account that sometimes dumb luck plays into it. Heck, Hinckley nearly killed Reagan with a .22LR from a revolver that most people on this forum would not even want as a paperweight, and conversely Teddy Roosevelt was saved from a .38 to the chest, by his campaign speech that just happened to be folded up in a jacket pocket right where the bullet struck.

Ultimately, trying to predict the likelihood of a shot being possible and/or likelihood of effectiveness is a tricky, and very murky field to try to navigate because there are just so many variables.

Good points

 

[taliv]

at K&M rifle match in january, we had a stage that was 7 shots on 8" moving plates at 300 and 500 yards. each target was exposed for about 21 seconds. so 3 seconds per shot on average. i got 14 hits in 42 seconds on a moving target at 300 and 500 yards. At this year's PRS match the stage was different and i shot about 50% on it. so i don't normally shoot that well on movers, but it can be done.

i don't know anything about carcanos and i don't know much about the incident, but there are definitely guys in this country who are just not going to miss a 6 MOA 60 yard mover. i'd say betting on them to go 3 for 3 in 8 sec is easy money.

 

[Potatohead]

It's not difficult for most hunters to make those shots. Add in the fact that Oswald was a Marine and a pretty accomplished shooter... no problem at all.

Some of his Marine buddies supposedly disagreed. Was the car moving away from him or going side to side?

(Ive gota feeling this thread is minutes from closure btw!)

 

[Potatohead]

at K&M rifle match in january, we had a stage that was 7 shots on 8" moving plates at 300 and 500 yards. each target was exposed for about 21 seconds. so 3 seconds per shot on average. i got 14 hits in 42 seconds on a moving target at 300 and 500 yards. At this year's PRS match the stage was different and i shot about 50% on it. so i don't normally shoot that well on movers, but it can be done.

i don't know anything about carcanos and i don't know much about the incident, but there are definitely guys in this country who are just not going to miss a 6 MOA 60 yard mover. i'd say betting on them to go 3 for 3 in 8 sec is easy money.

Interesting. I figure if the car was not moving away from or towards him, it would be especially easy...? (If my questions sound elementary, they should. I've shot a rifle about 3 times. And not very successfully at that.)

 

[Potatohead]

Well, the distance was given at less than 100 yards. The motorcade was moving pretty slow, so I doubt any lead would have been necessary. The rifle was scoped, and one of three shots was perfect. I don't think it would have been a particularly hard shot to make. The Carcano, while not a tack driver is certainly capable of that kind of accuracy. I have owned a few, and they are as accurate as just about any other battle rifle of the era, and faster to operate than a Mauser or Mosin.

I thought it was iron sights...guess I thought wrong.

 

[allaroundhunter]

Some of his Marine buddies supposedly disagreed. Was the car moving away from him or going side to side?

(Ive gota feeling this thread is minutes from closure btw!)

I've been at the exact spot were LHO supposedly took the shot from. If that situation is correct, then it would have been about a 90 yard shot on a vehicle moving almost directly away from him at 5 mph. Not a difficult shot by any stretch of the words.

 

[taliv]

oblique movement just slows the lateral movement. from 50-100 yards, your zero will typically shift less than .1 mil. probably less than half an inch on that gun. in otherwords, moving towards or away helped, not hurt

 

[Cee Zee]

Think about the Lee Enfield SMLE .303. The Brits had this training exercise where they had to put 15 hits onto a 12" round target at 300 yards within one minute. That's a round every 4 seconds but it's at 300 yards. Would it be possible get it down to under 3 seconds between rounds while hitting a 8" target at 60-70 yards? Absolutely. It's much easier to hit a 8" target at 70 yards than it is to hit a 12" target at 300 yards. And let's not forget that some Brit shooters could exceed the required amount of hits by a good bit. The record was 38 hits in a minute at 300 yards shooting that 12" target. Now does it seem possible that a trained shooter like Oswald could do 3 round in 8 seconds especially considering he wasn't even on target on 2 of the 3 shots? He would almost certainly be capable of making that number of hits in that time period. I'm not familiar with that rifle but I do have other bolt action, centerfire rifles and working the action and firing 3 times in 8 seconds sure seems possible to me. I don't even think it takes a particularly skilled shooter to be honest. Yes only one Brit had 38 hits in the mad minute but others certainly had hits way more often than 3 every 8 seconds. That's just 22-23 hits in the mad minute. And those weren't snipers doing that shooting either. It was their regular troops. And again Oswald only put one round where he wanted it. It seems like an easy thing to do for anyone that's spent time shooting IMO.

One other thing. I've seen people use a single shot, break barrel shotgun to hit two clays thrown at the same time. They have to shoot, reload and shoot again while the clays are in range. Not many can do that but a regular Joe in our neighborhood could do it when I was a kid. 3 shots in 8 seconds? That guy could probably get off 3 aimed rounds in 8 seconds with a single shot shotgun.

 

[Potatohead]

Sounds like I have my answer...an easy shot. I guess thats bad news for the tin foil crowd....Supposedly, one shot missed I do believe. (i see this was covered above as i was posting)

 

[Ranger Roberts]

Interesting. I figure if the car was not moving away from or towards him, it would be especially easy...? (If my questions sound elementary, they should. I've shot a rifle about 3 times. And not very successfully at that.)

The car was moving away from him. Coming directly at you (12 o'clock) or directly away from you (6 o'clock) isn't that hard. The biggest problem comes from your adrenaline. If you can keep it in check while firing you should have no problem making those shots. Afterwards adrenaline makes you shaky and even makes some people become sick to their stomachs.

Not to come off topic but check out a book called "Killing Kennedy" by Bill O'Reilly. It's very well written and interesting read.

 

[BADUNAME30]

If I remember correctly. The scenario was tested using a carcano and US MARINE very experienced with rapid firing a bolt action rifle to do the shooting.
It was discovered that even with a very experienced MARINE marksman, the rifle's action itself, did not lend well to that type of firing, accurately or fast enough.

 

[allaroundhunter]

If I remember correctly. The scenario was tested using a carcano and US MARINE very experienced with rapid firing a bolt action rifle to do the shooting.
It was discovered that even with a very experienced MARINE marksman, the rifle's action itself, did not lend well to that type of firing, accurately or fast enough.

We are only talking about the first shot. Not the string of fire. His first shot is the one that supposedly hit JFK, so any follow ups are not relevant to this.

 

[taliv]

what position was it fired from? standing? rifle supported by window? prone?

 

[Ranger Roberts]

what position was it fired from? standing? rifle supported by window? prone?

Supported by the window I believe. Or possibly supported by boxes from the warehouse.

 

[Leanwolf]

POTATOHEAD - "Sounds like I have my answer...an easy shot. I guess that's bad news for the tin foil crowd....Supposedly, one shot missed I do believe."

Nothing will ever dissuade the Conspiracy Crowd.

By the way, Oswald did not have to work the bolt three times. He started with one in the chamber. Therefore, he had to only work the bolt twice.

Again, that doesn't matter to those people who claim he could not have worked the bolt three times in the time frame.

L.W.

 

[Potatohead]

Good points all. "supposedly", and I will need to re look it up and link it probably, the actual gun he used was tested by the FBI and they remarked how sticky the bolt was. Not that that necessarily proves anything.