The Libertarian philosophy

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IS THAT WELFARE or a GOVERNMENT investing in it's people? Do we do away with those types of programs?

A couple of thoughts:

1 - While in you situation the govt came out ahead due to their "investment" how many others does it completely loose out on, so what would be the overall ROI to the govt as a whole?

2 - If assistance in these situations made sense wouldn't private companies want to get in on it? If the govt wasn't the 800lb gorilla when it came to living assistance I think companies would be more than happy to sell unemployment insurance to people. If you're in a field that is likely to be outsourced you'd probably pay a higher premium, likewise you'd pay a lot if you had a tendency to grope the secretary, if they'd even insure you in the first place.
 
LOL

Investment.

ROTFLMAO

Regardless of what you think about government "safety net" programs, something that is an ongoing expense with no profit in sight is not an investment.
 
Regardless of what you think about government "safety net" programs, something that is an ongoing expense with no profit in sight is not an investment.
The problem with the government investing in its people is not that it does it but that in many cases it does a really crappy job of choosing who it will invest in.

The government has been making a profit off of me for the last 15 years. With out it's help I'd still be an hourly wage earner. Instead the incremental income tax I pay over what I would be paying has paid the government's expense 10 times over at least and probably more because I guarantee the efficiency improvements I've made at various jobs over the last 15 years have improved the profitability and thus increased the taxes paid for at least 2 companies. On the other hand they've also resulted in not a few layoffs because we could do more with fewer workers - maybe a wash - <shrug>. All I know is that I am way better off because the government invested in training me.
 
Not putting you down, Werewolf, but that phrase, "GOVERNMENT investing in it's people", really gives me the creeps.
Why? In a government of the people, by the people and for the people shouldn't the government - meaning the people be INVESTING in themselves?

NOTE: Fellas - don't get me wrong. There's a difference between investing in people and supporting dead beats. If it were up to me I'd gather up all the dead beats, toss into a large walled off area and let nature take it's course. But it ain't up to me - soooooo... :evil:
 
I see that the Libertarianism=Anarchy fallacy is alive and strong.

Nobody is saying we can't have government. Nobody is saying that we can't have law and order. In order to have those in a form that is responsive to the needs of the people with less waste and corruption, we need to concentrate the power at lower levels where the people have more direct access and control.
Libertarianism is about holding the government accountable for it's misdeeds instead of using it's excessive authority to our own ends. It's about drawing to the strength of our unity of purpose rather than dividing ourselves into warring factions. It's about protecting our freedom, and that starts with respecting each other's freedoms.
I hear a lot of people complaining about taxes, greed, corruption, incompetence, and unconstitutional behavior in Washington, but I also hear too much of the fallacy that we only have two options; that or anarchy.

It's simply not true. The best option is that laid out in the Constitution (that document everyone on both sides turns to when it's convenient).
 
GoSlash, I agree in principle. The failed experiment of 1776 tends to demonstrate that "limited government" can't work, because whatever you do to try and "limit" it, it will overflow its banks and eventually flood the world.

That said, I'm all for restoring the original republic--or even better, the articles of confederation. Since that is equally impossible as establishing a capitalist anarchy, it makes very little difference which we root for. One is "pie in the sky," and the other is "the big rock candy mountain." We'll get neither, sadly.

--Len.
 
1. Censorship and gun control legislation, swept away.
So I can say anything I want to about anyone, and I can own any weapons i want?
2. No more standing army. The AF and Navy are fine, though the expenditures should be reduced in line with a defensive position rather than global hegemon.
A smaller standing army is a good idea, along with large reserve forces. you do need to have some standing army. otherwise there is little to build from. Even Israel and Switzerland have standing armies. The US did since its inception, just not in the numbers we do today.
3. Taxation realigned to a 3% national retail sales tax with food, medicine, shelter, water, and clothing exempt.
Why should anything be exempt?
4. End all welfare, including corporate welfare.
Be careful what you wish for. What is referred to as corporate welfare by the left is often just payment in kind to corporations to cause them to do things the politicians want them to do that they would have no other reason to do.
5. Narrow the scope of the commerce clause, by legislation if need be.
It got widened by legislation and by a supreme court that was not able to read and understand the simple words in the clause. How is legalization going to do anything?
6. Term limits for congress. "Professional politician" is synonymous with "career criminal".
Term limits are an iffy thing. I am not opposed to them, I just think they won't solve anything unless the federal budget is cut drastically, and then you wouldn't need term limits.
7. Reasonable immigration policy. Make it easier to secure US vistas, while having zero tolerance for illegal immigration or those that employ them.
How do you plan to enforce such a policy if you gut the federal government? Just how do you plan to make it possible for employers to determine someone's citizenship?
8. Repeal the death penalty, but add a new one, for corruption and/or abuse of power by federal officials.
How about we just execute violent and repeat offenders, regardless of their employment status.
9. Replace punitive or "rehabilitationist" sentencing for crimes with restitution.
How do you provide restitution for a murder? A rape?
10. Remove victimless crimes from the books. If no one is harmed directly by something, there is no rational basis for a law against it.
Define the phrase "no one is harmed directly"? If I overeat and weigh 500 pounds, I am harmed by overeating. Does that make it OK for government to force me to diet?
 
So I can say anything I want to about anyone, and I can own any weapons i want?
Generally speaking, yes--saying what you want to about anyone you want, or owning the weapons of your choice, will not get you arrested, killed or in any other way molested.

However, that doesn't mean there are no sanctions with teeth. If you bad mouth people in town, they are free to boycott your services--i.e., not shop in your store, refuse to hire you, etc. And there's no law saying that a shop owner has to serve all comers: the owner of the grocery store can refuse to serve you. If you tick off enough townsfolk, you'll find it impossible to buy groceries, gas, beer, cigarettes, electricity, telephone service, or anything else. In short, "bad behavior" can result in powerful incentives to pack up, move somewhere else and start over with a clean slate.

The whole "let people do whatever they want" thing is limited to physical force. If you aren't hurting me, I can't hurt you--no matter what I think of your depraved hippie lifestyle. But I don't have to do business with you, or be your friend. The ultimate sanction for socially undesirable behavior is shunning--and if you think shunning is kid stuff, remember: Amish people have been driven to suicide by it.

--Len.
 
I'm pretty sure the roads would suck in a Libertarian Utopia.

I imagine a lot of these "responsible" people would drive without insurance too

If a freeway is built near my house, and my commute is shortened from 30 to 10 minutes, but I also have to tolerate some freeway noise

Does anyone else notice how much most people's political and social viewpoints are dictated by the love of their cars?

Here's something to chew on: if the national government (I like that better than federal, too) hadn't grabbed enough power to create the interstate system, then people wouldn't have had a free method of getting to work 20 miles away, localities wouldn't have passed draconian zoning restrictions that prohibit the creation or maintenance of cities, and we'd all live next to a rail station and have only one car - a big gas guzzling pickup for fishing, hunting, and camping, not for sitting bumper-to-bumper for 40 hours a month.

The roads/cars/freeways/tolls situation as we live it each day simply doesn't apply to the libertarian philosophy, since, had we been following it in the 20th century in the form of limited constitutional government, our current situation most likely wouldn't exist.

But since the interstates were built as a military necessity, that leads in to this:

The realities of contemporary modern warfare demand a very high state of training for any Army to be effective. This cannot be achieved without a standing army.

No, the realities of contemporary nation building or preemptive war demand a very high state of training. In the last century we fought two world wars and won, with almost nothing to start with. Once we started fighting preemptively, with standing armies with high states of training, our record started getting a lot more spotty.

That doesn't seem like a good argument in favor of having a standing army.


Libertarianism is about not wanting to pay taxes and wanting to legally smoke joints while bloviating about the lesser of two evils.

Some people assume that "harming your neighbor" means only physical harm.
It could be anything from loud music late at night to public indecency.

While a few members of the LP really believe in freedom, I suspect the vast majority of them just want to be able to legally smoke pot.

Define the phrase "no one is harmed directly"? If I overeat and weigh 500 pounds, I am harmed by overeating.

And so continues the experiment of legislating morality.

The only people I talk to who I hear making these arguments are the good, moral, Christian people of Larry Flint fame. As I recently had to give up running the Sunday School because nobody would volunteer to teach the high school kids and I had to do it, I think I can get away with the following. In short, I'm commenting on myself too, so keep that in mind.

While you may think that they do a lot of good to clean up society, laws that enforce morality actually only serve to emasculate Christianity.

Your Church - and I'm going to go out on a limb and say any religious body, Christian or not - is the organization which is supposed to promote clean living and care for your fellow man.

It's also supposed to resemble a hippie commune more than what it is right now - which is a bunch of disconnected individuals more interested in complaining about how things are run in a particular building for an hour a week than creating and maintaining their own society.

I submit that when we legislate morality, it only serves to remove power from religion. The state becomes the authority on what is good and bad for you. Since religion then only directs society in what laws to pass and uphold, it is no better than a special interest group. Indeed, the "religious right" isn't religious at all, it's a lobbying organization, comprised of individuals who disagree sharply on other major theological issues.

Now if people are given the freedom to smoke pot or become prostitutes, is society really going to suffer, or is it just the individuals who will suffer? People like to point to the Netherlands as an example of the moral decay that can happen when you legalize this stuff - but as someone who has been there, I gotta tell you I don't remember seeing a single, solitary house of worship in Amsterdam, and I walked through most of it.

Is that because nobody wants religion in Amsterdam, or is it because the state has assumed moral authority over the citizenry, and they don't need religion? Is it because Dutch society rejected religion, or because religious society abandoned Holland?

Individual freedom can be boiled down to an evil, in that it gives us the opportunity to choose the wrong thing - but it also gives us the opportunity to choose the right thing, and that makes all the difference. When you outlaw prostitution and marijuana, there is no moral right/wrong question for these activities: the motivation to not do it is staying out of jail.

To me, and someone correct me if this is the wrong way of looking at this, Libertarianism is the belief that the state has a bare minimum of moral authority over us, based on natural individual rights; and as a consequence, it has no moral responsibility to protect and care for those of us who make the wrong moral decisions.

But society can't possibly function like that!

But that is where religion comes in.

You can't morally use the state to force me to pay taxes to fund police to ticket people who don't wear seat belts because too much of my other taxes are being used to support vegetables who got that way from getting in an accident while not wearing a seat belt. Outside of my Christian perspective, I can very easily deny that whole morality and say "screw him, he took his chances, let him die and stop charging me for any of this".

You can absolutely expect my religion to ask me for help taking care of him, though, since there's a divine mandate for me, personally, to care for him.

Personally, I don't think ponying up taxes to Caesar really fulfills that mandate.
 
What a meandering waste of bits this is. Everyone get your two cents in!

If you want a real education instead of just a bunch of back-and-forth blather, look up these terms at Wikipedia or perhaps some careful Google searching:

Anarchy
Anarcho-capitalism
Minarchism
Libertinism

I honestly did not understand these terms until recently, and it really clarified my confusion. It brought the signal out of the noise (i.e., this thread) and helped me improve my own personal philosophy of how things would be if I were in charge. :rolleyes: ;)

If you sift through it to find the good stuff, the Critiques of Libertarianism website provides a lot more valid criticism than "OMG YOUR NEIGHBOR SUX AND YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT!!" It is a good website to help us shore up some of the holes in the ideal, but one should not read it if one is just looking for more ammunition against libertarianism. There is still plenty of misunderstanding and false arguments there just like you see in this thread. You almost have to understand the idea before reading that site, or you will end up more ignorant.

I'm not sure what a good counterpoint for the Critiques site is. Maybe lewrockwell.com? I don't know; I don't pay too much attention to the back-and-forth.
 
Here's something to chew on: if the national government (I like that better than federal, too) hadn't grabbed enough power to create the interstate system, then people wouldn't have had a free method of getting to work 20 miles away...
FREE?!?

TANSTAAFL
 
Well, not free - but they already confiscated the money to build the roads, they already passed the laws that make it impossible to live where I work, and they already dismantled most of the public transit.

I suppose I could pay the extra money to get a cab to the bus station, take the bus to DC, take the metro train over to Vienna, take another bus about 1 mile from work, and walk the rest of the way - and spend about $55 one way and take four hours - so compared to that, yeah, my 30 minute drive is free.
 
Well, not free - but they already confiscated the money to build the roads, they already passed the laws that make it impossible to live where I work, and they already dismantled most of the public transit.
That's all true--but they continue to rob you to the tune of $30 billion-with-a-B every year. It's never too late to fix a stupid mistake. You're also right that things like zoning, hobbling competing transportation methods, etc., compound the problem. Once again, they create a problem by doing what they shouldn't, and then try to "solve" it by doing more of what they shouldn't.

--Len.
 
Uh, there's a pretty significant tax on gas. It goes towards roads. Those weigh stations along the Interstates? They collect taxes for road use. If those amounts need to be adjusted, fine. If we should have private roads, toll roads, etc., fine too. But to speak as if money is just confiscated, and spent on roads, simply because the money is spent, is inaccurate.

In fact, tax money intended for roads itself gets confiscated to build crap like trendy trains that cost billions of dollars. My city is one of the poster children, but many are following.

Drivers not only pay for roads, they pay for trendy pork projects that appeal to the aged limo-liberal hippie types who wouldn't ride the damn train themselves.

Now maybe you want to privatize roads, or whatever. Maybe you hate cars like the smelly people down at the food coop. Well, they don't REALLY hate cars, because they need someplace to live, but be that as it may.

Try to be slightly factual about road funding, and at least consider its benefits before pretending roads do nothing for you. Even if you ride a bicycle, you wouldn't find much at the grocery store without the Interstates. Our economy wouldn't be what it is, without transportation that isn't limited to a few rail lines. Returning to the 19th Century is hardly a good thing.

I've never heard many libertarians who actually thought we shouldn't have roads. Lots of them. In fact, most libs I've known are very pro-car. Personal transportation is a prerequisite for personal freedom in the workplace and the marketplace. Many believe we can and should have private highway systems, but the idea is that would result in better roads, not no roads.
 
ArmedBear: I think you're replying to me, but I can't lock onto where we disagree. On the one hand, pretty much everything you say, I agree with. On the other hand, I never said "roads do nothing for you."

Sure, roads are useful. Does that justify robbing people at gunpoint to pay for them? If I robbed you at gunpoint, then spent the money on food at McDonalds, some of which I let you eat, would you say something similar? You can't pretend I'm not doing anything for you: if you didn't eat, you'd starve. I decided when, where and what you'd eat, and I even robbed you to pay for it--but at least it's food and you do get to eat it, right?

--Len.
 
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Good points, budney.

ArmedBear, have you ever been outside North America? There are other approaches to doing things. Not that I'd ever admit that Europe does anything better, though. ;)

I also never wrote that I was against roads, nor did I ever write that I am against cars. In fact, I believe I wrote that I am in favor of every family having a big truck, and that all children should be forced to spend long, boring hours in it while driving to places they don't really want to visit.

What I am not in favor of is the fact that I also need to own two small cars. I have no interest in small cars. The only reason I have small cars is so that I can get to work and back, and run errands, without spending my life savings in gas.

You make it sound like if we stop enforcing the Eisenhower interstate system, American civilization would collapse. I don't believe that.

I believe that a free market would have put each of the big 3 car manufacturers permanently out of business a long time ago, and I don't see that as a bad thing. (I recently sold my 2006 Econoline because it got WORSE mileage than my 1990 GMC 3/4 ton, with all 240k miles on it. Possibly because it inexplicably weighed 2000 lbs more. They really care about mileage in Detroit.)

I believe that if states were left to their own devices to build roads, we'd end up with a lot more like Pennsylvania's 70 year old highways which are just now needing resurfacing.

I believe that if airlines weren't consistently bailed out, we'd be able to take a privately run train.

I believe that the link to the economy you mention is a forced link: that reliance on the interstate system has been encouraged from its inception.

True, maybe lots of people would regularly lose jobs if we did things another way. But I already stated that I don't believe I am objectively morally responsible for those people's well-being, and therefore the state has no business getting involved.
 
ArmedBear, have you ever been outside North America?

Yeah. And in the First World, they have superhighways. Most of them allow faster speeds than American freeways do. Furthermore, the geography of Europe is such that local rail still works better than here, but it simply replaces some of our trucking at a higher price. Japan makes it really difficult and expensive to own a car, but people still do. A lot of people.

I assume you are referring to G8 countries, not places where people subsistence farm, since we are talking about real economies here.

I believe that the link to the economy you mention is a forced link: that reliance on the interstate system has been encouraged from its inception.

I never said it wasn't.

I will posit, however, that if this highway system didn't exist, something similar would take its place.

Trains were made truly efficient by container freight, but the flipside of this is that the container freight model doesn't scale below a certain size. It's a system for the huge, not the tiny.

I believe that if airlines weren't consistently bailed out, we'd be able to take a privately run train.

So you're saying that, if airlines had to compete without government support (amid copious and expensive government regulation as well), people would rather spend a few days to get where a plane will take them in a few hours?

That's just plain silly.

Amtrak took over rail travel in 1970, during a time when airline tickets were far more expensive than they are today in constant dollars. Most private rail travel was gone or going quickly. The market no longer supported 19th-century travel technology and speed.

And this has nothing to do with libertarianism.

You guys are so quick to respond, you aren't applying the smell test to your own statements.

I'm not against privatizing roads. I am not wedded to the Interstate system. It's often screwed up in many ways -- it's the Federal Government doing it, after all.

However, the amount of money people in America AND EUROPE, among other places, are willing to spend on vehicles and related expenses indicates that there really is a market, a big one, for personal transportation, worldwide, wherever people can afford it. India, China, wherever people have money, they want cars and they're willing to pay for them.

It's a silly environmentalist myth that the government conspired to force us to want cars. We wanted cars, and we still do. There may be many consequences, good or bad, but Henry Ford got rich by supplying enormous pent-up demand, not by selling iceboxes to eskimos.
 
So you're saying that, if airlines had to compete without government support (amid copious and expensive government regulation as well), people would rather spend a few days to get where a plane will take them in a few hours? That's just plain silly.
All things being equal, we'd all fly. What we don't know--and can't possibly know, except by trying it out--is exactly what mix of transportation would be used in a free market. Highways are subsidized by government, and so are railroads, buses, subways and airlines.

Without the subsidy, I suspect more freight would go by rail and less by highway. I suspect that some short-range car traffic would shift to buses and trains, but that's pure speculation. Some of the people doing long trips in cars might do them by train instead. It's a complete reshuffle, and there's no predicting what it would look like.

...there really is a market, a big one, for personal transportation...
Of course. There might be MORE people on the roads and FEWER taking trains. There might be more sports cars and fewer SUVs. There might be more compact cars and pickups, and fewer sedans. And there might be some interstates where there aren't any today, and some of today's interstates might not exist. Nobody is claiming that cars and highways wouldn't exist in a free market. At least I'm not.

It's a silly environmentalist myth that the government conspired to force us to want cars.
I've never heard that one, but I wouldn't put it past the environmentalists. The problem with that theory is that government subsidizes practically everything--including every major means of transportation. Their subsidy of highways isn't a plot to make us use highways; it's just part of the larger picture of sticking their fingers in every pie.

--Len.
 
budney-

All the modes of transportation you mentioned exist now, and, though in a less-than-free market, they do compete. There are many market messages that get through loud and clear, right now.

It's important to remember, though, that market forces don't simply disappear because of regulation, subsidy, etc. They're just distorted to a greater or lesser degree.

I think that, absent excessive government power, the first thing we'd see would be new refineries. None have been built in the US in many decades.

That would make gasoline cheaper.

We also would see far less expensive cars, with better gas mileage, available without air bags and other heavy and expensive safety features. There are reasons that Beatniks old truck burned less gas than the new one, and it's not some evil Detroit plot.

Generally, I think that we agree. Beatnik, on the other hand, has some ideas about how things would be, sans Interstates, that I don't buy into.

WRT the whole idea about freeways being a government/oil company plot to destroy public transportation has been around for a long while here in California. It's pretty funny, really, since suburban sprawl appears also to be driven by demand for family-friendly housing in safe neighborhoods that don't exist in cities, not government coercion.
 
Have we got this one solved, everyone? :p

All I want to do is start by cutting one job from the EPA. Just one job..
 
All the modes of transportation you mentioned exist now, and, though in a less-than-free market, they do compete. There are many market messages that get through loud and clear, right now.
Sure, but with lots of distortion. Socializing an industry lowers the S/N ratio of price information, so that it becomes more difficult--and sometimes impossible--to make rational economic decisions. We ship tons of stuff by truck because it gets there quicker that way; shipping by rail is much slower. But if shippers bore the real cost of their business, it might turn out that over-the-road transport is just too expensive, and more stuff would go by rail. Of vice versa--after all, both types of transport are heavily subsidized.

It isn't that we'd all be flying around like the Jetsons if it weren't for government. We might, at that, but nobody's claiming that. The point is that we can be sure we're not allocating resources in the most economic way, because costs are hidden. We might have too much road, or too little; cars might be using more fuel than they should, or less; there might be more diesel and less gasoline, or vice versa; there might be more hybrid cars, or none at all; we might fly more, or less; we might use more mass transit, or less; etc. Plus the unknowable effect of things that would have been tried under a free market, but weren't. Maybe roads surfaced with rubber, or metal, or jelly beans, instead of asphalt. Etc.

(I suspect there would be more dirt road in the country. In fact I suspect that it would be typical for interstates and main roads to be paved, and residential roads to be graveled. Pure speculation, of course. But under that scenario, there would be fewer children killed by speeding cars in residential areas...)

The real problem with allocating resources inefficiently is that the cost comes from somewhere. If we weren't paying more than we should for roads, we might have spent more on food, or clothing, or research into space flight, or air conditioning, or curing cancer... or who knows? That, too, is unknowable. We do know that money was forcibly diverted to transportation; we have no idea what would have been done with it if it hadn't been diverted. And we do know that our overall prosperity would have been that much greater.

--Len.
 
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