The M855 issue is still up in the air. ATF Chief calls all 5.56 ammo a threat.

[Bexar]

http://bearingarms.com/atf-chief-sug...paign=baupdate

Ibid.: In a Senate Appropriations Committee hearing, ATF Director B. Todd Jones said all types of the 5.56 military-style ammo used by shooters pose a threat to police as more people buy the AR-15-style pistols.“Any 5.56 round” is “a challenge for officer safety,” he said. Jones asked lawmakers to help in a review of a 1986 bill written to protect police from so-called “cop killer” rounds that largely exempted rifle ammo like the 5.56 because it has been used by target shooters, not criminals.

 

[barnbwt]

Well, if he's pitching to the Senate, that's a tacit admission he currently lacks the authority to pursue this, and must advocate for a statute. Good luck, pops*.

TCB
*Lupin III reference

 

[hso]

Who's on the committee? How quickly can we start sending them emails and making phone calls that the entire purpose of LEOPA's restriction on AP handgun ammunition and Senator Moynihan's express intent to exclude rifle ammunition was because ALL rifle ammunition will go through LE soft body armor. Allowing BATFE to put rifle ammunition, any rifle ammunition, under LEOPA's prohibition is a fundamental scope change of LEOPA and runs afoul of all the reasons Senator Moynihan did not want rifle ammunition in LEOPA's scope.

 

[hso]

Senator Cochran probably isn't interested in hearing the ATF's ideas on this, but...

Committee Members

Republican Members

Thad Cochran

Mitch McConnell

Richard C. Shelby

Lamar Alexander

Susan Collins

Lisa Murkowski

Lindsey Graham

Mark Kirk

Roy Blunt

Jerry Moran

John Hoeven

John Boozman

Shelley Moore Capito

Bill Cassidy

James Lankford

Steve Daines


Democratic Members

Barbara Mikulski

Patrick J. Leahy

Patty Murray

Dianne Feinstein

Richard J. Durbin

Jack Reed

Jon Tester

Tom Udall

Jeanne Shaheen

Jeff Merkley

Chris Coons

Brian Schatz

Tammy Baldwin

Christopher Murphy

 

[justin22885]

any criminal can and will use any caliber they can get their hands on.. and i've NEVER seen an AR-15 pistol used in any crime.. just more ATF over-stepping its authority.. they need to be disbaned but moreso the 86 bans and 68 GCA in which they derive their powers need to be removed.. we need to push our legislators and any gun rights organizations to target these bills and take away all teeth the ATF has

 

[justin22885]

since they admit they had no authority to ban M855, they also have zero authority to ban 7N6.. how and who do we pressure to force the ATF to unban that?

 

[barnbwt]

Own a '74, do you?

You pressure the same exact people. If the ATF worries they could face legislation for power/funding cuts or uncomfortable hearings (they were on a bullet train for those with this M885 baloney), they will back down every time.

TCB

 

[justin22885]

i do own a '74, but mines 5.56mm, the interest in overturning unjust legislation should not be pushed aside based on my own personal need.. the 7N6 ban needs to be overturned simply because its the right thing to do

we need to pressure the senators willing to defund or disband the ATF to continue the push.. and we should come up with an easy letter we can pass around online to send in to them and legislators.. unfortunately it seems now no one gives enough of a damn to do anything anymore because they got what they wanted.. even though itll be short lived because theyve stopped the push

 

[joem1945]

Just this A.M . Fox news reported some ATF bozo had to step down because of his (postion) on the green tip ban. GOOD RIDDENCE, hopefully many more to follow.

 

[justin22885]

still though, 7N6 and M855 are nearly identical in construction, its still a loss if 7N6 can remain banned

 

[hso]

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Director B. Todd Jones announced his resignation Friday.

Jones, who in 2013 became the first permanent director for the agency in seven years, is set to leave the 5,000-member agency March 31.

Not just some ATF Bozo, but THE ATF Bozo. Testifying before the Senate Committee headed by an NRA A+ rated Senator and saying that ALL 5.56 were a threat to officers and should be regulated as M855 doesn't make for good career planning.

***

7N6 and M855 are nearly identical in construction

No, they're very different. 7N6 has a steel core with a little lead while M855 has a lead core with a steel penetrator tip. Just look up the cross sections and you'll see they are about opposites in construction.

 

[LemmyCaution]

The bigger issue with 7n6 is that it is not made in the US. It has to be imported, and because of that, BATFE has the authority to regulate its importation outside of any authority granted by LEOPA. Remember, there is no ban on selling or possessing 7n6, it's just that the supply has dried up, since approval to import it has been rescinded.

 

[justin22885]

it doesnt matter if theyre opposite, backwards, or upside down, the 7N6 by definition falls into the same exact category as M855, neither one matching the description of armor piercing to begin with, if one of them has no grounds to be banned, neither of them do and so long as one remains ban they will continue to go after the other

 

[barnbwt]

If the rounds are not barred from import by LEOPA interpretation but by separate importation discretion, there's not much to be gained by hammering the ATF on the LEOPA definition, now is there?

Now, if somebody here started making identical bullets that could legally be sold, that would undermine the exercise of the ATF's discretion to keep Russian ones out. But then they would simply say this is part of 'sanctions' or something.

I'm afraid this is simply one of those areas where too much authority was granted to an agency for us to address it without legal/legislative action. It's in the Prez's hands, and he's not interested in budging.

TCB

 

[justin22885]

except its more than just the russians that were exporting it

 

[Tirod]

Since bills are being introduced to either ban 5.56 completely or exempt it permanently, ti would seem that the appropriate committee will be charged with sorting it out.

 

[hso]

We can assume that none of the bills banning ammunition will be able to get anywhere in committee since the Chair of those committees are not Anti.

What WE need to be doing is sending mail to our Congresscritters demanding that BAFTE be dragged before Congress to explain the shady way they tried to ban M855 and strongly demand to know who formulated that plan to have them tossed out after Mr. Jones. At the same time we need to demanding that specific language amending LEOPA to keep rifle ammunition from being banned goes into an important piece of legislation that the current Administration wants to pass so we can get the threat from ATF gaming LEOPA out of the picture altogether.

 

[LemmyCaution]

it doesnt matter if theyre opposite, backwards, or upside down, the 7N6 by definition falls into the same exact category as M855, neither one matching the description of armor piercing to begin with, if one of them has no grounds to be banned, neither of them do and so long as one remains ban they will continue to go after the other

Except you're missing the point.

7n6 isn't banned. It is prohibited from import. 7n6 was not prohibited from import because it was armor piercing (or at least, if it was, it was entirely statutorily kosher for that to happen).

18 USC § 922(l) states

(l) Except as provided in section 925 (d) of this chapter, it shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to import or bring into the United States or any possession thereof any firearm or ammunition; and it shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been imported or brought into the United States or any possession thereof in violation of the provisions of this chapter.

This means that without exceptions granted by § 925 (d), NO AMMUNITION OF ANY KIND is legal for import.

18 USC § 925 (d) states:

(d) The Attorney General shall authorize a firearm or ammunition to be imported or brought into the United States or any possession thereof if the firearm or ammunition—
(1) is being imported or brought in for scientific or research purposes, or is for use in connection with competition or training pursuant to chapter 401 of title 10;
(2) is an unserviceable firearm, other than a machinegun as defined in section 5845(b) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (not readily restorable to firing condition), imported or brought in as a curio or museum piece;
(3) is of a type that does not fall within the definition of a firearm as defined in section 5845(a) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 and is generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes, excluding surplus military firearms, except in any case where the Attorney General has not authorized the importation of the firearm pursuant to this paragraph, it shall be unlawful to import any frame, receiver, or barrel of such firearm which would be prohibited if assembled; or
(4) was previously taken out of the United States or a possession by the person who is bringing in the firearm or ammunition.
The Attorney General shall permit the conditional importation or bringing in of a firearm or ammunition for examination and testing in connection with the making of a determination as to whether the importation or bringing in of such firearm or ammunition will be allowed under this subsection.

As such, it is illegal to import firearms and ammunition, with certain exceptions. The Attorney General shall grant exceptions in certain cases spelled out in 925 (d). The one of those applicable to 7n6 is the sporting purposes exemption. But whether or not to grant this exemption to 7n6 is at the discretion of the Attorney General. And given that 925 (d)(3) specifically calls out 'military surplus firearms' as ineligible for this exemption, it isn't a stretch that they'd also deny it to military surplus ammunition.

Now one could conceivably argue that by that reasoning 7.62x39, 7.62x54r, .303 British and a whole host of other milsurp ammunition should equally be prohibited, and that the AG is singling out 7n6 because of its penetrator and inappropriately calling it 'armor piercing,' but that just isn't relevant. It's the AG's call to make, and they've made it.

About the only challenge conceivable to that determination would be a lawsuit on equal protection grounds, but establishing standing for that would be a serious long shot.

 

[Tirod]

The initial reason to ban 7N6 was that it was made in Russia, Russia was sponsoring a "liberation" movement in the Ukraine, and the Administration was using international export as a tool to punish the Russians for doing it.

Certain Russian made AK's were also restricted from sale here, too. Armor piercing was just a side benefit.

What likely alerted the Administration to 7N6 was OUR reaction to the import ban. Why, if we'd get that worked up over it, why not try the same stuff with M855?

Even if they lose, it's now on the table as a cop killer bullet and something they can play with in the press every time it comes up. As the former Chief of Staff has said, never let a good crisis go unused, the next cop shot dead with 5.56 will likely get another bill introduced. The next time will be as part of a LEO overhaul or improvement or funding or whatever, just bury it in the language.

Of course, given a hard push, you'll have to pass the bill to read what's in it.

Who's the best at ferreting out this kind of underhanded legislating? It's not Mom's for Intelligent Discussion of Eliminating the 2d Amendment. I'd trust the NRA to let us know far sooner.

Currently, yes, our reps do need to hear about our grievance with politicizing an agency. I'd sure not let the opportunity go to review how the IRS and others are being misused, too.

Widespread abuse of this kind by any former President would have led to hearings on the Hill, maybe they are just biding time to start them as the election campaign settles into gear.

 

[barnbwt]

As such, it is illegal to import firearms and ammunition, with certain exceptions. The Attorney General shall grant exceptions in certain cases spelled out in 925 (d). The one of those applicable to 7n6 is the sporting purposes exemption. But whether or not to grant this exemption to 7n6 is at the discretion of the Attorney General. And given that 925 (d)(3) specifically calls out 'military surplus firearms' as ineligible for this exemption, it isn't a stretch that they'd also deny it to military surplus ammunition.

Like I said, our previous generation(s) screwed up and gave too much power to an executive agency on this one. Legislation or court order are the only remedy, and the latter is as disinclined to rule in our favor as anyone. Gotta fix the import regs through congress, or live with it.

"The initial reason to ban 7N6 was that it was made in Russia"
Actually, it was because AK74s were really taking off over here and 7N6 was one of (the?) cheapest centerfire rifle rounds associated with autoloaders available. That combination meant that 7N6 would be getting imported in greater and greater quantities in short order (heck, the ATF may have been alerted simply by all the ammo importation requests*). And there was great mention of the steel core as I recall. Sound familiar, yet? More importantly, 7N6 was the primary ammunition available at the time; AK74 prices/interest collapsed soon afterward. Obviously the hope was that the same could be accomplished for AR15s.

As I've said, this has always only ever been about banning the AR15. It makes no sense, even from a tyrannical standpoint, to be so ideologically fixated, but these are anti-gunners we're talking about. The very image of an AR15 causes them physical pain.

"Why, if we'd get that worked up over it, why not try the same stuff with M855?"
Hardly; there wasn't much of an uproar beyond the few folks who already owned the guns.

TCB

*The popular conspiracy theory is that NATOs transition to the new ammo will dump untold billions of rounds of M855 onto the world --our-- market. Not that any importer of ammunition would disclose business dealings currently under consideration, but...any news through the grapevine about lots of import deals on surplus ammo being made right now?

You have to ask Mother if you may bring in ammo/parts kits through American ports; it's potentially a very convenient way for the ATF/administration to keep tabs on developments in gun owning America before they're let out of the bag and become visible to us customers.

 

[hso]

We can debate the differences between 7N6 and M855 and what BATFE used to ban 7N6, but that needs to lead to a plan of action being developed.

Mr. Jones' appearance before the Committee seems to have been the breaking point in his brief career in BATFE. What do we do now with the momentum of BATFE's withdrawl of the proposed framework and Mr. Jones gaffe of telling the Committee that all 5.56 was a threat to officers?

 

[barnbwt]

Well, the next step would be to rewrite/amend LEOPA, but there seems to be little appetite or courage for that from our side, so I suspect we'll squander our advantage. I'm still bugging my reps to pass a "rifle round design intent" clause that'll keep the various rifle/carbine rounds from ever being considered (at least so far as the ATF gets to consider them rifles --another area we need to press for congressional clarification)

TCB

 

[hso]

I agree that LEOPA needs to be amended to exclude rifle ammunition. We'll still have to deal with new ammunition that comes out first in a carbine and then a pistol, but at least by excluding all rifle ammunition we would avoid the current abuse.

 

[BSA1]

The best way to get the BATFE attention and to convince them how serious gun owners and Congress is about their proposal(s) is for Congress to cut their budget. This has been done before (I believe it was during the Reagan Administration) and was very effective in the BATFE changing their policies.

With the Republicans in control of Congress it should be easy to attach it as a Amendment to a bill that Obama and the Libs want and send it Obama.

 

[barnbwt]

Budgets can and will be raised again, and then we're back where we started; probably within five years. If we want to constrain their options, let's do it the right way with clearly written law.

TCB