The much maligned .38 special

[mavracer]

I put a set of crimson trace lg405s on my 442 they have an air pocket on the back that soaked up a lot of the recoil it made +Ps very pleasent.enough that I sold my 442 and bought a 340M&P with the same grips.With remmie .357 golden sabers it's about as bad as the 442 was with the stock boot grips.
I'm not going to do any 1000 round classes with it,but I shot 90 rounds through it wednesday 50 light and 40 GSs no problem.

 

[Jeff F]

It's what most of the ranchers around here use to put down steers when they go to butcher them.

 

[Jake H]

It is pretty obvious that the .357 Magnum cartridge is way too long for modern smokeless powder. When I reload my own bullets with HS-6 and a 158 grain bullet there is about a 1/2" space of air in the case. The .38 Special is better with its 1/8" shorter case, but still not perfect. I do understand why they lengthened the .38 Special to what the .357 Mag is, but I also think that you should know the difference between a .38 Spc and a .357 Mag before you can buy a firearm. My ideal revolver/cartridge would be something the size of a S&W 586 chambered for a rimmed cartridge a touch shorter than the .38 Spc.

 

[Jim March]

It is pretty obvious that the .357 Magnum cartridge is way too long for modern smokeless powder.

Except that the large case volume lowers the peak pressure for the bullet energy delivered. The case capacity is the main reason we can get more bullet energy out of the 357 than, say, the 9mm.

 

[Diggers]

Heh heh.

I shot a 360 PD last weekend, with .38 specials.

In fact I am trying to figure out if the Fiocchi 130 grain going at 950 fps (what I was shooting) is in fact a +P rating....but I alas I still don't know.

It did kick a bit but not real bad. .357 would be nutzo in that little gun though.

About the original topic.... YES the .38 special gets a LOAD of crap in some forums. Most often its talked about as marginal at best and many flat out state that you should not trust you life to it.

Then again some aren't happy with anything less than a .44 mag.

 

[Shear_stress]

About the original topic.... YES the .38 special gets a LOAD of crap in some forums. Most often its talked about as marginal at best and many flat out state that you should not trust you life to it.

I guess my point is that the .38 Special might take a lot of guff from a few internet commandos but, when it comes down to brass tacks, revolvers chambered in this round are still S&W's best selling wheel guns.

Cosmoline, the whole quote from that article is that the 642 is S&W's best selling gun from their best selling line.

 

[BigG]

The much maligned .38 Special -

The next chorus of that song goes "Yeah, but my thutty two is pretty good, also." yada yada yada [we need to get that puke icon back for these occasions]

 

[Jake H]

Jim you bring up a good point. Yes I agree that a smaller volume case will produce a higher peak pressure for the same amount of gunpowder (thats basic physics).

The pressure curve varies between different powders (mainly based on burn-rate I believe). A faster burning pistol powder will generally have a steep pressure curve; that is they reach peak pressure fairly quickly. In a handgun, with its relatively short barrel, I prefer to use a medium-to-fast burning powder such as HS-6 to insure that most all of the powder is burned before the bullet exits the barrel. Also, I have found that higher pressure burns powder more cleanly and more thoroughly. Efficiency is what I look for. A revolver with the cylinder mass of say a S&W 586 could easily handle the higher chamber pressure of a .38 Special loaded to .357 levels.

I prefer to have 100% loading density in a cartridge when used with the powder and bullet weight I prefer. It is simply speculation, but I also believe that a large air-column inside a cartridge case is adverse to accuracy.

So you might say well why don't you just buy a .357 Magnum revolver and then load .38 Special cases to .357 levels. My qualm with that is I can't stand having the bullet travel so far in the cylinder to reach the forcing cone (when using .38 Special cases). That can't be good for the forcing cone nor accuracy.

Maybe I will do some velocity testing with my S&W 686 and .357 Magnum/.38 Special cases when I get the chance.

Regards,
Jake H

 

[Mr. Designer]

I have a S&W Model 360Sc and do shoot full .357s out of it. Its not something I want to shoot all day but it is almost always with me because of how easy it is to carry. I also put on a Crimson Trace Defender Laser Grip to help with shot placement. If I should need to use it (God forbid), I doubt I will be thinking about the kick.

 

[volgunner]

Anyone thought about starting a dedicated .38 Special thread?

Regards
Russell

 

[Raspu10]

OMG i want a S&W 642... Those Lil Sexy Beasts ROCK!!!

 

[crebralfix]

Jim Cirillo didn't care for it and he used it to kill people. Just something to think about.

 

[1man]

Jim Cirillo is a Firearm Specialist & Educator(he knows there are better options available), he used what he was issued/authorized by his Department Policy!

I carry a S&W 640(38 special) when I'm not armed. When I'm armed, I carry ? and my S&W 640!

 

[campbell]

I prefer to have 100% loading density in a cartridge when used with the powder and bullet weight I prefer. It is simply speculation, but I also believe that a large air-column inside a cartridge case is adverse to accuracy.

.38 Special loads in .357 cases using low charge weights of fast powders like Titegroup and Bullseye is a common practice. Accuracy is not a problem.

So you might say well why don't you just buy a .357 Magnum revolver and then load .38 Special cases to .357 levels. My qualm with that is I can't stand having the bullet travel so far in the cylinder to reach the forcing cone (when using .38 Special cases). That can't be good for the forcing cone nor accuracy.

With .38 Specials, your forcing cone is likely going to outlive you.

 

[welldoya]

I was told by the manager of a gun shop that the 642 is their shop's as well as Smith and Wesson's biggest seller.
When I first got mine , I was shooting WWB +P self-defense loads and it wasn't all that bad, not particularly fun but not bad. I switched over to the non-+P WWB JHP and it's a ball to shoot now. And I am much more accurate with the non +Ps.

 

[Jake H]

campbell notice how I said .38 Special cases loaded to .357 Magnum levels. The bullet would have an extra 1/8" to accelerate before it hits the forcing cone.

I haven't tested the accuracy of .38's out of a .357 revolver myself, but will when I get the chance. I would think the least amount of travel from inside the cylinder to the forcing cone would give best accuracy. Much the same as when reloading for rifles, which I have much more experience with. I find the best accuracy when the bullets are loaded touching or into the lands.

 

[mashaffer]

I prefer to have 100% loading density in a cartridge when used with the powder and bullet weight I prefer. It is simply speculation, but I also believe that a large air-column inside a cartridge case is adverse to accuracy.

No problem just load triple 7 or Goex.

But seriously, couldn't you just develop your load with the bullet seated deeper?

mike

 

[Majic]

It is simply speculation, but I also believe that a large air-column inside a cartridge case is adverse to accuracy.

Well I guess you have never heard of the age old load for accuracy in the .38 spl consisting of 2.8 gr of Bullseye behind a 148 gr WC.

 

[campbell]

Much the same as when reloading for rifles, which I have much more experience with. I find the best accuracy when the bullets are loaded touching or into the lands.

I suspect you'll find that kind of fine tuning doesn't yield the same returns with a revolver like it does with a bench rest rifle. None of us are going to be doing 1/2 MOA with DA revo shooting.

 

[Jake H]

Mike,
I wouldn't seat the bullet deeper for two reasons. The crimp groove would be inside the case, and seating the bullet deeper moves the bullet even farther away from the forcing cone.

Majic,
No I never heard of that load. I have never shot lead bullets through any of my firearms except maybe a .22 LR. Don't have anything against them I just prefer jacketed bullets. And I know for a fact there is no "magic load" for all firearms.

My opinions seem to go against the grain of most in this forum and I know exactly why. Most of my experience with firearms involves Centerfire Benchrest competition at 100 & 200 yards. Its about the most anally retentive sport there is.

To give you an idea of the accuracy achieved, the smallest 100 yard group ever fired in competition measures .009". That means that all 5 bullets struck the paper within .009" of each other, at 100 yards. I've seen a picture of the group and its amazing. The current 5 shot, 200 yard world record is about .080" I believe. The 6PPC chambers are machined to tolerances measured in the .0001". The 68 grain hollow-point jacketed bullets are hand made by a few custom makers. Short range benchrest rifles are simply the most accurate firearms in the world.

What I've learned in that discipline I apply to generally all other firearms I own, including revolvers. Thats where all my opinions come from. I'm accustomed to the 6PPC cartridge with its 100% loading density, outstanding efficiency, and remarkable accuracy.

Through BR I learned how much of a difference the tiny details make. I've seen a .002" change in seating depth take my BR rifle from shooting .300" patterns to .150" bugholes. If you are at all interested go to this forum:
http://www.benchrest.com/forums/

So when I see a half inch space of air inside a .357 cartridge it just goes against what I see as optimal. The same thing applies to shooting a .38 special out of a .357 magnum revolver. The bullet has to travel about a half inch before it even enters the barrel! Still, there's just something about revolvers...

Anyways, there's nothing more fun for me than messing with all this technical stuff. I'm done ranting for the night.

 

[Jake H]

campbell,

I just now read your latest post (I was busy typing my saga).

That is exactly the idea that I've never believed in. You can only shoot as well as your gun, so why not squeeze the last bit of accuracy out of it?

And FYI, a good BR rifle will consistently shoot about .125 MOA. By consistently I mean five, five shot groups averaged together (an aggregate).

Regards,
Jake

 

[Cosmoline]

Jake H: There are quite a few powder/bullet combinations that fill up the special's case more than enough. I think the "air space" concern is much more of a factor with .45 Colts, .45-70's and the like loaded with a wee charge o' smokeless. In such cases the air space isn't so much the problem as the spacing of the powder. It creates variabilities if it's scattered around inside the case.

If you're sticking to jacketed bullets in an older .38 Special, you may well run into problems. They were generally calibrated for 158 grain lead slugs and do best with those or with soft lead wadcutters. You have to remember that the velocity is vastly less than a benchrest rifle and at lower speads soft lead can often grab the rifling better than a jacket, esp. if it's old style rifling developed for lead slugs.

Beyond this, the wheelguns have many variables that you could spend ages trying to track down and eliminate, from the b/c gap to shake in the cylinder to the way the pin hits the primer. But they're good enough for what they do. If you want to squeeze maximum accuracy out of a handgun a thompson center will give you much better results for your trouble. Have you tried one?

 

[Jake H]

Cosmoline, good post.

Yes I do know that there are different powder combinations that will fill up a .357 mag case, like H110 and a 158 grainer. But like I said earlier I like to use medium-to-faster burning pistol powders like HS-6 since they, in my experience, burn more thoroughly and with less muzzle blast/flash.

The only revolver I currently own is a S&W 686 pre-dash w/ 6" barrel, and I only use 158 jacketed bullets. I am keeping an eye out for a .38 Special though, probably a model 15 or possibly a Diamondback. I will take heed of what you said about the lead bullets. Lead bullets do not foul very much at lower velocities right?

Your last paragraph is right on. There are tons of variables to play with in a revolver. I understand that 3" groups at 25 yards is probably good enough for personal defense. But I don't use my revolver for personal defense so I just tinker with whatever I can to squeeze the last bit of accuracy out of it. I've never shot a thompson center. I'll just grab a rifle for anything that's out of my revolver's range.

Jake