The New Yorker responds

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bfason

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You got to hand it to Mr. Hertzberg. He not only read my letter to the end even after I was snarky, but he took the time to send back a reply.



Begin letter-----------------------
June 20, 2003

Dear Mr. Fason:

Thanks for your thoughtful and informative letter.

I agree with you that gun laws often have features that seem arbitrary, illogical or just silly. But isn't it because they get bent out of shape by the political donnybrooks that produce them? Sensible gun control would consist, in my opinion, of treating guns like cars. The guns themselves would be registered and their owners licensed (after passing the equivalent of a driver's test). And perhaps guns should have the equivalent of the keys to the car, so that toddlers couldn't use them to blow each other's brains out. I doubt a program like that would pass muster with the NRA, though.

I did know the difference between fully automatic AK-47s and semiautomatic ones. It reminds me of the difference between crack cocaine and the powdered variety. How important the difference seems may depend on one's orientation. Mine, as you correctly note, is liberal, urban and, if not exactly anti-firearms, anti the irresponsible posssession and use of firearms.

Many thanks for the website tips. The next time I write about guns, I'll try my best to get the fine points right.

Sincerely yours,

Hendrick Hertzberg
Senoir Editor, The New Yorker

--------------------End letter
 
A nice letter. Problem with the 'treat guns like cars' idea is that governments don't have a track record of trying to take away people's vehicles. They do with guns. Thus our refusal to register our firearms.

I am with him in one way, though - our CCWs should be treated like driver's licenses. If I have a VA CCW, it should be good in any state, just like my driver's license is. Every state has different driving test requirements, so why does every state recognize other states' licenses?
 
To play devil's advocate, what is the difference between cars and guns that makes driving a car a "privilege" and owning a gun a "right"?

Explain this as if I were an anti-.
 
Moondancer, if you're driving your car on your property then it's a right. If it's on public property then it's a privilege. That's certainly an over simplification but you get my point. The last time you bought a car did the salesman ask to see your drivers license? Did he even ask if you HAD a drivers license? Did he ask if you were over 18, or 21? The ONLY reason a motor vehicle is licensed is to help pay for the roads.
 
At least he's honest

99% of the journalists for the major newspapers and magazines, not to mention the screen writers, feel the same way. Not many are willing to come out and admit their bias.
 
Moondancer, I'll bite.

I have a right to own a firearm because this tool is directly involved in my ability to defend myself. The right to prevent my own death or serious injury at the hands of another person is about as basic a right a human being can have. That is precisely why us 'gun nuts' are so adament on the 2nd Amendment. What use are the rest of our rights if we're dead?

Driving is a privilege because, as important as it is to us, it simply isn't essential or necessary for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The Constitution, in theory, only safeguards essential, God-given rights. It doesn't give us the right to drive a Beemer, the right to housing, the right to a job, etc.

In summary, the right to self-defense, the right to speak freely and assemble/petition government, etc. etc. are essential rights that are recognized by the Constitution. Driving isn't.
 
Because the 2nd doesn't say "A well regulalted militia, being necessary for security of the free state while riding around in air conditioned cadillacs, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".
 
There are myriad problems with the tired comparison "Treat guns like cars...". I'm going to play devil's advocate for a minute so bear with me and don't get your blood pressure up until read the WHOLE post.

I think we should push for legislation to treat guns EXACTLY like cars. Reasons? Well, no where does the law state you have to register a car. If you buy a car and plan only to use it on the farm (or any private property) and not on public roadways, you do not have to register the vehicle. You also do not need a license to drive a vehicle, unless it is on public roadways. Now, if you do intend to use public roadways with your newly purchased vehicle, you have to have that vehicle registered and you have to be licensed. You can loan your registered vehicle to any other licensed driver from anywhere in the country without any legal repercussions. You can also drive that registered vehicle anywhere in the country. You have National Reciprocity.

Now, if you have a competition vehicle (i.e. drag car), you can legally tow that vehicle behind your legally registered vehicle without breaking any laws.

So, if guns were treated EXACTLY like cars no one would have to be licensed, no guns would have to be registered, unless you intend to use them in public. Equate that to CCW, as long as you have a CCW license (as most of us do now) you can carry anywhere in the country. The gun doesn't have to be registered to you, as long as it's registered. The only guns that would have to be registered are the ones intended for CCW. If you don't plan to use the gun for CCW, you don't register it. There would be no background checks, even a convicted felon would be able to get a license (ever heard of a felon being denied a driver's license?) unless said felony was driving related.

Several other points can be extrapolated from this scenario, I just don't have enough time to elaborate on all of them right now. I know this situation would be legislated to remove all the "loopholes" that are being taking advantage of by terrorists, murderers, kidnappers,etc. but, this discussion does actually make people think. I've used it on several "kinda, sorta, anti-gun" types. It really turns a light on...
 
car/gun? ok! no felon can own a car!

:neener:
sure would keep all the guys who kidnap rape and kill little girls from
driving legaly (think polly klass etc)
A friend of mine was run over by an assault truck driven by a double
felon
http://www.scorcher.org/crobertson/chris.html
Chris Robertson, while riding in a friends wake, was killed by truck driver Reuben Espinoza. At the time, Chris was riding in a friends wake. The truck driver became incensed when many cyclists took the lane, in a light traffic part of town. He hurled a wooden bloke at the riders. Words were exchanged and he ran Chris down. Cyclists detained the driver until police showed. The drivers abstract showed a history of aggressive driving. The truck driver’s own attorney thought he should go to jail. The verdict, innocent.
So sure treat CARS/TRUCKS like guns...NO felons can drive! a background check! NO private party transfers NO you can't move to NY/CA/DC/ etc with your ASSAULT SUV federal oversight on all FEDERAL LICENSED CAR/TRUCK SALEsMEN. add 20 yrs in the federal pen for committing a crime with a car... :barf:
 
Guns like cars.. go for it

Oh, if only. I long for the day when any person with the money can walk into a gun shop, buy any gun he wants, use it for any lawful purpose he wants and not have to deal with the government unless he proposes to use it on government property.

Once that happens, we can have government maintained ranges in every neighborhood, government sponsored "shooters ed" in schools and government bailouts of financially troubled gun companies.

Anyone with a pulse and an IQ > room temperature could get a "shooter's license" valid in all fifty states and be able to carry their gun any place they wanted.

Please, Mr. New Yorker writer, throw us in dat dere briar patch.
 
A couple of decades ago I would've welcomed treating guns like cars . . . that way, once I turned 16 and completed high school shooting class, I could've gotten my shooter's license and started taking the family .357 to school!

Of course, there would be as many public shooting ranges as there are roads, and ammo stations would be around every couple of blocks, many with gunsmiths on the premesis . . . to avoid disturbing the peace, all guns would be fitted with silencers . . . yep, we could do a whole lot worse than treat guns like cars.

:rolleyes:
 
Nobody's trying to ban cars. Well, S.U.V.s, maybe, but not regular cars—or not yet, anyway.

And how many people would be screaming about their privileges being trampled when the State tells them they can no longer drive them? Of course there would be a Government SUV buyback program.
 
Buying, owning or possessing an "unregistered" car is not a crime (assuming its not stolen).

Driving an "unregistered" car on private property is not a crime (most race cars are not registered or licensed.

Driving an "unregistered" car on public roads is not a Felony, in most cases its only a traffic offense (I can assure you even thinking about owning an unregistered gun would be).

Transporting an "unregisterd" car via public roads is perfectly legal (assuming it is being towed or carried.


Using the "treat guns as cars" logic you would only have to register your guns if you want to shoot at a government owned or run range.


EDIT: somehow I missed standby's post :neener:
 
Zundfolge, not only are race vehicles not usually licensed and registered, they typically don't even have a title. There's absolutely no papertrail on the CBR F3 that I raced.

Yeah, treating a gun exacltly like a car doesn't sound too bad to me.
 
Thanks, guys. I appreciate all the thoughtful comments, and I believe that I will write a follow-up letter to Mr. Hertzberg.

Also, I came across the following article posted to the web.
Taking it to the streets: Why treating guns like cars might not be such a bad idea by David Kopel.

I seem to remember that there are many scholars who started out as anti-firearms but were won over as they examined the issue in depth. While I doubt that we win over Mr. Hertzberg to our point of view, I think that he realizes that any gun-related articles in The New Yorker will be picked apart word-by-word by intelligent, responsible, gun-owning subscribers. If that means that we see accurate and intellectually honest reporting about gun issues, then I think we can score that as a win.

At this point, the most powerful weapons in our fight are our keyboards.
 
bfason

The ace-high all-time best write-up on the comparison of guns and cars is by J. Neil Schulman. It seems to have fallen off of the 'net but maybe it is time for its return. Unfortunately, I will have to truncate the original text and place it here in two posts.

OKAY, LET'S LICENSE GUNS JUST LIKE CARS

by J. Neil Schulman

How many times have you heard gun-control advocates argue that it's ridiculous just anyone can buy a gun without a license in most states, considering you need to register your car and get a driver's license?

Further, the argument goes, guns should be registered and licensed the way cars are because while it's true that cars are involved in about 50,000 accidental deaths a year in the United States and firearms in only around 1,500 accidental deaths, guns are used in around 15,000 homicides a year and another 15,000 suicides.

Of course this comparison leaves out how many automobile fatalities are actually suicides. Police accident reports have no good way of knowing how many single-driver or opposing-traffic crash fatalities are suicides. An autopsy showing blood alcohol or drugs won't necessarily tell you it was an accident because wouldn't you get stoned if you planned to kill yourself in a car
crash?

But the final argument to register guns and license gun owners is always the same. Unlike cars, we are repeatedly told, guns have only one purpose -- to kill.

Forget for a moment that the best criminology shows guns being used two-to-three times more often in defense against a crime than guns being used to commit a crime; and forget that the overwhelming number of these gun defenses occur without the trigger ever having to be pulled. Let's also forget that 99.6% of the guns in this country will never shoot anyone.

For the moment, let's just pretend that there is some reason behind the argument that guns should be licensed and registered like cars.

If we're going to take that argument seriously, then let's enact the same standards for owning and operating a firearm in the United States as are actually in use for owning and operating a motor vehicle.


Comparing Manufacture, Ownership,
Registration, and Enforcement

To begin with, anyone in the United States may own a motor vehicle without a license. You can be living on death row in your state's maximum-security prison and still hold title to a motor vehicle.

But under federal law, no convicted felon, or dishonorably discharged veteran, or a person addicted to alcohol or a controlled substance, may own a firearm; and there are additional restrictions on possession of firearms by persons under a court restraining order.

If we're going to treat ownership of firearms the way we treat ownership of motor vehicles, we're going to have to repeal these firearms laws.

There are no restrictions whatsoever on what sort of motor vehicle anyone may own. Anyone of any age may buy or own an automobile, or an eighteen-wheeler, or a motorcycle, without restriction. You can own a car that looks like a hot dog, if you feel like it.

But there are both federal and state restrictions on the ownership of various types of firearms, or even parts for them. Restrictions include operational capacities, accessories, or mere appearance. Laws restrict the sale or ownership of fully-automatic firearms; similar restrictions affect some magazine-loading but non-automatic firearms. Other laws restrict rifles with pistol grips or bayonet mounts or flash suppressors. Federal restrictions forbid the sale of ammunition magazines that hold more than ten rounds. There are laws against handguns or shotguns with too short a barrel, and restrictions on owning firearms which are made to look like anything else, such as a wallet.

If we treated ownership of firearms the way we treat ownership of motor vehicles, we'd have to repeal these sorts of laws.

One need not register any motor vehicle unless one operates it on public roads. In some states, the registration of a motor vehicle need not be in the actual name of an owner but may be registered under a fictitious or business name. One may own and possess an automobile even if one lives in public housing. There are no laws requiring that automobiles be kept in locked garages or specifically penalizing parents if their children gain access to an unlocked garage and operate the vehicle, causing harm. There is no restriction on the ownership or possession of motor vehicles in Washington D.C., Chicago, Detroit, New York, or other major cities; nor any requirement that motor vehicles be kept disassembled and locked up, unavailable for immediate use.

In cities such as Washington D.C. and New York, numerous prohibitions, restrictions, and requirements are made in the possession of firearms. In Washington D.C. and elsewhere, if you're allowed to own a firearm at all, you must keep it locked up, unloaded, and disassembled, even in your own house. In some public housing projects where the police are rare, poverty-stricken residents must surrender all rights to possess firearms for self-protection. In California and elsewhere, a parent who keeps a loaded or unlocked firearm for protection, even if well-hidden, risks special penalties if a child finds it and causes harm with it.

If we treat ownership of firearms the way we treat ownership of motor vehicles, we must repeal these firearms laws.

There is no waiting or background check necessary for the purchase of any motor vehicle. There is no restriction on the size, power, or seating capacity of the motor vehicles one may legally purchase. No one passed laws making it illegal to lower the noise-making capacity of a motor vehicle; to the contrary, laws require that motor vehicles not violate noise-pollution statutes. There are few or no restrictions forbidding automobile ownership by ex-cons, or convicts on probation, or parolees, or individuals under court restraining orders, or even registered sex offenders --not to mention so-called deadbeat dads. Even persons convicted of vehicular homicide may usually still legally hold title to an automobile.

But there is a waiting period to purchase a firearm in many states, ranging from the five days mandated by the federal Brady Law, to some states or cities where the background check can take many months to process. Background checks often block the purchase of a firearm by someone whose only crime is that she has an unpaid traffic ticket or that he's behind on his child support, or someone is subject to a restraining order obtained as a legal maneuver in a divorce. Often the license allows just one firearm of a type selected by a police official, and also restricts the times, places, and purposes to which one may possess that single firearm. There are laws forbidding the installation of silencers on firearms which would allow them to be fired quietly during target practice, with a result that damage to ears -- even with ear protectors -- is common.

If we treat ownership of firearms the way we treat ownership of motor vehicles, we must repeal these restrictive firearms laws.

There is no federal license needed to manufacture a motor vehicle; nor is the possession of parts with which one can manufacture a motor vehicle subject to federal, state, or local laws. The federal government does not raid the homes of its citizens looking for parts that could be used in the unlicensed manufacture of motor vehicles. Kids can make or modify motor vehicles in their back yards, driveways, or in school auto shops with help from their teachers.

In contrast, manufacture of any firearm requires a federal license requiring fingerprints, a police background check, oaths and warrants, and significant license fees. Both federal and state authorities have harassed both licensed dealers and non- commercial sellers suspected of paperwork or technical violations; and sting operations have entrapped individuals. Authorities induced backwoodsman Randy Weaver into sawing a shotgun barrel shorter than the legal limit, and attempted to make him miss a court appearance for this violation by changing his court date without notice; his failure to appear resulted in a violent confrontation between this previously law-abiding man and federal authorities. The confrontation resulted in the death of a federal officer and of Weaver's wife Vicki, who was shot -- standing unarmed while holding an infant -- by an FBI Hostage Rescue Team sharpshooter 200 yards away.

At Waco, Texas, an armed assault by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms on the Christian Branch Davidians resulted in a firefight which led to immediate deaths on both sides, and the later deaths of 85 previously law-abiding men, women, and children; the warrant which authorized this raid was that the Davidians were suspected of possessing parts which would have enabled the conversion of a magazine-fed but non-automatic rifle into a full-auto rifle that -- if the federal tax had been paid -- would have been legal to own in the state of Texas, anyway.

In numerous cases, acting on nothing more than anonymous tips, federal officers have staged raids on gun-owners' homes, destroying their property, terrorizing their families, confiscating valuable gun collections later determined to be perfectly legal, and even killing their pets. No compensation has ever been made to victims of these gestapo-like raids.

If we treat ownership of firearms the way we treat ownership of motor vehicles, we must repeal these confusing laws and disband federal police agencies involved in these sorts of operations.

There is no requirement that a motor vehicle be purchased from a licensed dealership. There is no federal licensing of motor vehicle dealers, and no federal bureau with police powers allowing regular inspection of dealer's sales records without a warrant.

In some states, including California, all purchases of firearms must be made from federally-licensed dealers. All federally licensed firearms dealers must allow the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms a yearly inspection of their dealer-record-of-sales forms. ATF agents have been known to use these occasions for general searches or even theft of any other paperwork they find interesting, without obtaining a search warrant meeting constitutional requirements. The Bill of Rights forbids general searches and requires officers, if they wish a search warrant, to make sworn affidavits stating what they are looking for and what crime it is evidence of.

If we treat ownership of firearms the way we treat ownership of motor vehicles, we must repeal these firearms laws, and forbid such unconstitutional searches.

Anyone can purchase a motor vehicle by mail, or across state lines. There is no restriction of the number of motor vehicles one may own, or any restrictions on the number of motor vehicles one may buy in a month.

It is illegal to purchase a firearm by mail or from a seller in another state unless one holds a federal dealer's license or such purchase meets legal purchase requirements in both states. Some states, such as Virginia, forbid the purchase of more than one firearm per month.

If we treat ownership of firearms the way we treat ownership of motor vehicles, we must repeal these laws.


Comparing Licensing

One does not need any license to be in possession of any motor vehicle anywhere in the United States of America. There are no requirements that a motor vehicle be kept locked up and in non-operational condition as a requirement of legally transporting one. There are no laws requiring cars to be stored in locked garages, or otherwise made inaccessible to their owners. Students who drive may drive their cars to school and park them on school property if such parking is available.

In many cities and states, it is illegal for a private individual -- and often even a sworn police officer who is off- duty -- to be in personal possession of a firearm in operational condition -- that is, loaded and without a trigger guard -- or in possession of even an unloaded firearm if it is concealed or not deliberately rendered inaccessible to its owner; or to keep even an unloaded firearm in the trunk of one's car or concealed on one's person.

If we treat ownership of firearms the way we treat ownership of motor vehicles, we must repeal these firearms laws.

There are no restrictions on the operation of motor vehicles on private property, with the owner's permission, anywhere in the United States. A child may legally operate a motor vehicle on private property with no license required. The only licensing requirements in any state are in the event that one is going to operate that motor vehicle on public streets or highways, in which case one must qualify for and carry an operator's license.

In many states or cities it is impossible for a private individual to legally possess a firearm on public streets at all; and the use of a firearm, even in cases of legal self-defense or protection of the lives of others, often results in prosecution on firearms charges. Bernhard Goetz, acquitted by a jury for shooting young punks on a subway whom he had good reason to believe were attempting to mug him, was convicted and served jail time for possessing the firearm he used to defend himself. There are additional restrictions on the possession of firearms by minors, even with their parents' permission, under conditions where such possession would be for a legally-permissible purpose. In addition to other criminal penalties, students possessing a firearm, or a toy gun, or even empty ammunition casings on school property are suspended or expelled.

If we treat ownership of firearms the way we treat ownership of motor vehicles, we must repeal these firearms laws against possession and legitimate use of firearms.

Training for operating a motor vehicle is part of the curriculum at public high schools. There are also private operator's schools in every neighborhood, without zoning restrictions. In many states one may get a learner's permit to operate a motor vehicle on public roads as young as age 14, and an operator's license as young as 16. At 18 one can get an unrestricted operator's license. Additional tests allow one to operate 2-wheeled vehicles and 18-wheel vehicles. The test for an operator's license tests one's knowledge and proficiency in the safe operation of a motor vehicle. You do not have to convince anyone that you have a need for the license. Once you've demonstrated competency at a level that almost anyone can satisfy, the state has no discretion in refusing you an operator's license. Except for convicted violators allowed restricted driving privileges, any state's license for operating a motor vehicle is good in all places throughout the state, at all times, and every state's license is recognized by every other state. The license is good for operating all motor vehicles of that class, not just motor vehicles which one owns.

In those states where it is possible to obtain a license to carry a gun at all, such licenses are often at police discretion, and handed out as payoffs to political cronies. The licensing procedure is often burdensome, invasive of privacy, time-consuming, and expensive. In some states the possession of a carry license is a matter of public record which can be reported in the news. Often licensing is blatantly discriminatory against women and minorities. Often the license has severe restrictions as to time and place that one may carry the firearm, and limits the carrying to only specified firearms. Usually the license is not recognized by other states and a person carrying a firearm under another state's license is prosecuted as if they were not licensed at all. In Los Angeles, actor Wesley Snipes was arrested for carrying a gun; Snipes was licensed to carry in Florida but was charged anyway. Even in states, such as Florida, which make issuance of licenses mandatory to qualified applicants, there are numerous restrictions on the places into which one is permitted to carry the firearm, resulting in accidental violations of law and suspensions of licenses. One must be twenty-one to obtain a license to carry a firearm in most states; and federal law severely restricts possession of firearms by individuals under eighteen, even with their parent's consent. Firearms training in schools is a rarity, with the result that those minors in possession of firearms -- even if they have legitimate fear for their lives -- are both penalized for carrying them and often left unqualified, by lack of available training, to possess or operate them in a safe or disciplined manner.

If we treat ownership of firearms the way we treat ownership of motor vehicles, we must rewrite these carry laws to remove these burdens and restrictions, and make training more available.

You may, with your motor vehicle operator's license, rent a motor vehicle when your motor vehicle is unavailable -- such as upon arrival at an airport in a city one is visiting.

There is certainly no Hertz Rent-a-Gun at every airport.

Now, shall we place exactly the same restrictions on the manufacture, vending, purchase, ownership, and operation of firearms that we currently place on automobiles?

The laws regarding motor vehicles in our society, while not perfect, at least recognize these common devices as serving the legitimate purposes of large numbers of the population. Lawmakers have at least tried to see that the laws governing automobile ownership and operation do little more than serve basic public requirements, such as revenue and encouraging proper training and safety awareness. Ordinary motorists, while perhaps overburdened themselves, at least aren't penalized for thinking they have a need to keep a working car with them. Punishments in our society are reserved for those who misuse motor vehicles, not those who use them as they were intended.

Contrariwise, the laws regarding firearms in our society always seem to place the burden of proof on any private person to demonstrate to some public servant a need to own or possess a firearm. Restrictions disarm the public in places where there is increased danger of violence -- precisely where one might need to defend oneself.

It is true that, for most of us, guns aren't as useful on a daily basis as cars. Looked at with a micro perspective, you could carry a gun for years before finding it needful; a gun kept for protective purposes is more like a fire extinguisher than a car. You might never need it; but when you do, having it can prevent tragedy.

Looked at with a macro view, we now know that one of your neighbors uses a firearm every thirteen seconds or so preventing just that sort of tragedy, and that using a gun for defense in an assault or robbery attempt is twice as likely to keep you unharmed than either not resisting at all or attempting any other form of resistance.

[more]
 
[con't]

Yet, for a person not either engaged in a life of crime or professionally confronting criminals, it is the very unlikeliness of needing the gun that fosters our problems with them. If more ordinary people carried guns more regularly, more of us would be familiar with them, education in them would be as common as for cars, and we'd see more stories on the news about how one of our fellow citizens was Joanie-on-the-spot with her gun when some psychopath decided to turn her lunch break into a murder spree.

The protection of your life, property, family, and community ... hunting game ... shooting sports ... and training of the young in arms ... these are all well-established in our nation's customs, the Declaration of Independence, our Bill of Rights, federal legislation, and various state constitutions and laws. Unlike laws treating motor vehicles, our firearms laws are a patchwork quilt of taxes, burdens, regulations, conditions, invasions of privacy, and outright prohibitions, all expressing the mentality that only persons of political privilege may possess means to use deadly force if the need arises. Gun control advocates demand a "national gun policy," but their demands are only for increases in gun restrictions in places that don't currently have them; they are unwilling to unify laws in such a way that local violations of firearms rights are preempted by federal laws.


So, by all means, let's start immediately rewriting the laws in this country so that the ownership, possession, and use of guns are as fair and even-handed as laws governing cars. Maybe more people will then keep guns with them when they're needed, and criminals with guns will no longer operate with the guarantee of a disarmed public to prey upon.

Honest gun-control advocates should be delighted at this prospect. They just might get precisely what they've asked for.

J. NEIL SCHULMAN is the author of two Prometheus award-winning novels, Alongside Night and The Rainbow Cadenza, short fiction, nonfiction, and screenwritings, including the CBS Twilight Zone episode "Profile in Silver." His latest book is STOPPING POWER: Why 70 Million Americans Own Guns. Schulman has been published in the Los Angeles Times and other national newspapers, as well as National Review, Reason, Liberty, and other magazines. His LA Times article "If Gun Laws Work, Why Are We Afraid?" won the James Madison Award from the Second Amendment Foundation. Schulman's books have been praised by Nobel laureate Milton Friedman, Anthony Burgess, Robert A. Heinlein, Colin Wilson, and many other prominent individuals.


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Post as CAR_GUN.TXT
 
I have a real problem when gunnies give the knee-jerk response, "gun ownership is a right, driving is a privilege."

Utter nonsense.

In America, we have a RIGHT to travel. We had a right to travel by foot, horse, wagon, train, plane, or by automobile. It is as if gun owners would sell their souls for the right to own a gun. All the other rights be damned so long as you can win a frickin' debate.

"The RIGHT of the citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, in the ordinary course of life and business IS A COMMON RIGHT which he has under the Right to enjoy life, liberty, to acquire and possess property, and to pursue happiness and safety. IT INCLUDES THE RIGHT, in so doing, TO USE THE ORDINARY AND USUAL CONVEYANCES OF THE DAY and under the existing modes of travel, INCLUDES THE RIGHT...TO OPERATE AN AUTOMOBILE THEREON, for the usual and ordinary purposes of life and business." (emph. added)
TECHE LINES v DANFORTH, 12 So. 2d 784; THOMPSON v SMITH, supra."

and

"The Right of the citizen to travel upon the highway and to transport his property thereon, in the ordinary course of life and business, DIFFERS RADICALLY AND OBVIOUSLY from one who makes the highway his place of business and uses it for private gain... The FORMER IS THE USUAL AND ORDINARY RIGHT OF THE CITIZEN, A RIGHT COMMON TO ALL, while the latter is special, unusual, and extraordinary." (emp.added) EX PARTE DICKEY (DICKEY v DAVIS), 76 W.Va 576, 85 SE 781 (cited by Washington decisions) (See also TECHE LINES v DANFORTH, supra, and THOMPSON v SMITH, supra)."

and

"First, IT IS WELL ESTABLISHED LAW that the highways of the state are public PROPERTY, that their primary and preferred use is FOR PRIVATE PURPOSES, and that their use for PURPOSES OF GAIN is special and extraordinary which, generally at least, the legislature can prohibit or condition as it sees fit." (emph. added)
STEPHENSON v BINFORD, 287 US 251, 77 L. Ed 288, 53 S. CT. 181, 87
ALR 721, 727; PACKARD v BANTON, 264 US 140, 144, 68 L. Ed 596, 607,
44 S. Ct. 257 and cases cited; FROST 7 F. TRUCKING CO. v R.R. COMM., 271 US 583, 592, 70 L.Ed 1101, 1104, 47 ALR 457, 46 S. Ct.
605.

Traveling on public roads you paid for with your tax money is a right. Doing business on the roads is what the courts early on have considered the "privilege."

I have another 13 pages of court cites if anyone wants more.

Rick
 
I owe AZRickD a beer. I've been arguing the "driving is a right" argument for a long time and have never found the court cases to back it up. Thanks! :D
 
I've been arguing the "driving is a right" argument for a long time


Surely you aren't saying that someone has the right to drive military-style hummers and urban assault vehicles on the same roads where there are children? And besides, why would anyone *need* a car that goes faster than the speed limit? Or a car of the type commonly used by gang-bangers and drive-by shooters.
 
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