The Relative Power of .38 Snub Nose

[Ian11]

As I posted on an earlier post I expressed interest in acquiring a snub nose .357/.38 for close range self defense. I plan to load it with .38 +P then switch to .357 Mag 110 grain or Federal 130 Personal Protection .357 once I feel competent enough.

Is a .38 +P from a snub pretty comparable to a .380 in your opinion? I'm aware of Marshall/Sanow's stopping power "statistics" and Ammolabs's findings. Yeah, its pretty dismal but the snub Ruger SP-101 I'm considering is one of those "better to have a gun than not having one at all" kind of guns.


*By the way anyone know where I can get 158 grain LSWC in .38? I hear this is the optimal load in .38

 

[SteelyDan]

Well, I'm probably unqualified to offer a reliable opinion, but I do believe that, in selecting a close range self-defense gun, the "line" is kind of drawn somewhere between the .380s and the .38s, with the .38s being on the "right" side of the line. And with +P ammo, the line is even more clear. I'd get an SP-101 over a .380 in a heartbeat, unless recoil sensitivity was a major issue.

 

[Jim March]

Here's my take: in the debate over 380 vs. 38+P in a snubby, the raw energy numbers don't tell the whole story.

Basically, the snub has other advantages: heavier bullet weights increasing the penetration depth at these marginal performance levels, and the ability to design nosecone shapes for maximum hollowpoint expansion independent of the need for feed-ramp reliability (because wheelguns don't have feed issues.

There are a very small number of 38+Ps I'd trust to perform in a snubby. Two that I can get easy and have tested well in gelatin (both plain and denim-wrapped, tested in 2" barrels) are:

1) Winchester 130grain Supreme +P: it's a JHP with a freakin' HUGE hollowpoint cavity. I'd be willing to bet that a cavity that big just cannot work with a semi-auto. It'd hang up on the feed ramp.

2) The "old standard": 158grain plain soft lead hollowpoint (LSWC-HP) +P. Known as the "Treasury Police load", Chicago load", "Metro load" and similar for various police agencies that used to use it going literally all the way back to the 1920s. It's a primitive, old-school hollowpoint but it tends to expand fairly well at modest snubby-grade velocity and it's got the weight to punch deep. It's cheap, low-tech, not flashy and has been phased out completely by Federal, Remington has almost halted production and only Winchester still takes it seriously and even then it's hard to find.

There's maybe a couple more that are worth talking about in snubs. Either of those will get the job done. I really don't think there's a 380 load that are as good, even if we're talking 3" barrel 380 versus 2" barrel snubby wheelgun.

That said, try and get a 3" barrel snubby instead of a 2". If you're looking at Ruger SP101s, and you want the bobbed-hammer version which is only available in 2", get the 3" and have the hammer bobbed - it's a dirt-cheap bit of surgery. The extra inch of tube will help with velocity and expansion reliability and won't really have much effect on concealability unless you're going to try front-pocket carry, which I feel all the 5-shot 38/357s are too big for.

 

[WebHobbit]

I would caution anyone from purchasing a 3 inch 5 shot for a CCW piece!

I just bought an SP101 to replace my battered 640 and I at first was set on ordering a 3 inch but then decided against it after I discovered NONE of the big leather holster companies make an OWB pancake style holster for a 3 inch 5 shot.

Galco did make a nice rig for the SP101 3 inch (still listed on their site) BUT they are discontinuing it due to lack of demand. I was told by a Galco rep that they still have some of the left-handed version left but there will be no more made.

Galco is my preffered maker but I also checked out Bianchi and DeSanti (among others) and NONE of them make a pancake for a 3 inch SP101.

So while I LOVE the idea of a 3 inch SP101 it's pretty much OUT unless you wanna spend BIG bucks on a truly custom-made holster (or can make your own).

 

[Frenchy]

Don Hume makes a variety of holsters for the 3" SP101. I've owned four of Hume's holsters and have been quite satisfied.
DON HUME HOLSTERS

 

[tbeb]

I feel .380 ACP is comparable to .38 special +P from a snubnose. The majority will disagree though. Having said that, I recently changed my CCW from a 12-shot .380 to a 5-shot .38 special. I reverted back to a snubby for various reasons-- mainly because, in my opinion, it is one of the best guns for pocket carry.

 

[RUT]

>>I recently changed my CCW from a 12-shot .380 to a 5-shot .38 special<<

Are you allowed only to carry that weapon... the one showing on your CCW?

 

[ACP230]

I currently carry a Smith M649 with Cor-Bon 158 grain LSWCHP (a discontinued load).

I find that I can shoot better groups at 50 feet and 25 yards with a Manurhin (Walther) PP in .32 ACP.

A .380 auto might make sense even though it is lower in power if:
1. You can conceal it.

2. You shoot it a lot better than you do a snubby.

I don't own a .380 so am sticking to the .38.

 

[Penman]

The SWCLHP .38+P load has a lot of history, with geood results for a .38 Special. You won't find .380 loads with comparable results.

 

[DDGator]

I realize that felt recoil doesnt translate into stopping power, but try shooting .380 in a light gun (like my P-3AT) and then shoot some .38 Corbon +P in an airweight S&W of heavier but comparable weight. To me there is no comparision that the .38 is generating a lot more engergy.

Whether this translates into stopping power, I don't know. I suspect it probably does.

 

[popeye]

RUT...Indiana doesn't have any restrictions on carry gun. If you've got a permit, you carry whatever you want. No test, no quaifying, no specific gun.

 

[Jim March]

Heh. Every holster I make is 100% custom to you and the gun, max price is $40. But I only make a few for local friends, so I can fit it right to them.

Making your own holster in either kydex or leather is NOT that hard. Esp. IWB, where cosmetics aren't as crucial.

 

[Poohgyrr]

I have always heard of good results with the hollow point version of the 158 gr LSWC.

 

[Bob]

Hey Web: Before I started making my own holsters I bought from Milt Sparks. I'd bet if you call them they'd build whatever you need and do it right. Don't give up just 'cause you don't see it. Or, you could take the plunge and learn how to make your own. That is an a blast.
Bob

 

[Mannlicher]

WebHobbit says:" just bought an SP101 to replace my battered 640 and I at first was set on ordering a 3 inch but then decided against it after I discovered NONE of the big leather holster companies make an OWB pancake style holster for a 3 inch 5 shot. "

Any decent leather guy, like Andrews Custom Leather, can provide you with a nice IWB, or OWB holster. Mine is a tension hold, saddle style, no retention strap, since my 3 inch Smith Mod 60 is hammerless. I think the price was about $80, which is a steal for a hand made, custom holster.

and......... a 158 LSWC from a snubbie blows a .380 of ANY kind clean away. Jim March is on target with his comments.

 

[Jim March]

Any leather holster for a 2" snubby can have the bottom lopped off and used for a 3".



(Seriously though, as long as the gun is stainless, this will work great.)

 

[WebHobbit]

Jim - I suppose that would work but I'm not about to spend 60+ on a nice quality Galco holster and then take scissor/knife to it.



That would look awful!

Call me crazy but I appreciate the beauty of the workmanship and styling of better holsters such as Galco.

Also I rather like having the full length of the barrel protected by the holster as I have had occasion to bump into things.

 

[makdaddy03]

I like my 38spl Taurus and Rossi snubbies. I feed them 158gr SWCHP lead or the 158 gr SJHP. I also like the 380acp for the more rds the merrier.

 

[38Mike]

Your dealer should be able to order you some ammo.
Mine just ordered me 2 boxes of Win. 158 gr LSWC-HP.... $17.95 a box......

 

[Old Fuff]

Web Hobbit:

There are too many advantages to a 3" barrel to give up because of the holster situation. If you can't find a pancake consider a beltslide style that is open at the muzzle end and will work with any barrel length. I did this with a Colt Detective Special with a 3" and it works fine. It will also carry a 5" Police Positive Special as well.

 

[braindead0]

The original question

.380 ACP 100gr loads are running (from a variety of powder manufacturers) between 900-1000FPS

Compared to .38special 110gr loads which are all > 1000FPS. Or even better, 158GR loads which run from around 750 to the 990's (published data, not 100% sure of barrel length). Add to the mix +P and I think even with a 2" snubby you should be able to get 800+ FPS with 158Gr.

.38+P can be roughly 25% more power than .380. If you reload (bad according to some for personal protection) and have a firearm that can handle .380+P the gap is smaller, but not by too much.

 

[Jim March]

I have no doubt you can equal the energy level with a 380. With the few 4" barrel 380s out there, you can top the energy of a 38snub.

But you can't top the effectiveness. Bullet design matters too.

Another thing: all these small guns are often used as close-range fighters. And it's at "bad breath range" that the snubby wheelgun becomes the king of the fighting handguns, bar none. They can't go out of battery on muzzle contact, and are difficult to grapple away (even in 3", much less in 2"). They're generally tough enough to use as a dire-emergency bludgeon and at least be able to crank off the five or six on board; if the ejector rod is exposed, it could bend and then you've got reload issues galore but the rounds in there are gonna go off.

 

[braindead0]

Perhaps, I do know that I can get 980fps out of 115gr FMJ's from my Makarov (+P load).

Of course as another mentioned previosly, slower speed 158GR would probably provide better penetration... I doubt you could do wrong with 158GR LSWC-HP's out of a .38....

 

[WT]

Some chrono date published in COMBAT HANDGUNS, August 1992. Test weapon was a Smith Model 642 - 2" snub revolver.

CB 115 jhp +P+ = 1189 fps
WW 110 jhp +P = 904 fps
RP 110 jhp +P = 965 fps
CCI 110 jhp = 822 fps
Fed 110 jhp +P = 978 fps
WW 125 jhp +P = 952 fps
RP 125 jhp +P = 988 fps
CCI 125 jhp +P = 944 fps
BH 125 jhp +P = 966 fps
Fed 125 jhp +P = 995 fps
ww 158 lhp +P = 825 fps
RP 158 lhp +P = 839 fps
Fed 158 gr lhp +P = 845 fps
CCI 158 lhp +P = 815 fps
Fed 158 lhp +P Nyclad = 845 fps
WW 158 swc +P = 819 fps
RP 158 swc +P = 805 fps
CCI 159 swc+P = 799 fps
WW 158 rnl = 653 fps
RP 158 rnl = 616 fps
Fed 148 rnl = 644 fps

 

[WT]

2 typos - should read 158 gr.

Sorry ' bout that.