The Relative Power of .38 Snub Nose

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Per most of the testing I've seen, 158 lead hollowpoints based on the Keith SWC profile will expand at speeds of between 825 and 875. At 900 to 1,000 they're right at their peak.

This is why I like 38 snubbies that have TIGHT gaps. Mine is at .002", so my odds of hitting 850fps with the Winchester or Remington variants is quite good. I trust this load at that speed. At 800fps they're marginal but still probably the best choice.

I would recommend *against* the Federal Nyclad 158+P hollowpoint. Based on the tests I've seen, the plastic coating retards retention just enough to screw 'em up in a snubby. In a 4" or especially 6", sure, no problem.
 
Out of curiousity...

...I checked the .38's I have currently loaded.

Three J-frames: one has 147gr +P+ Hydrashoks, one has 158gr +P LSWC-HP's, and one has 125gr +P Golden Sabers.

Two K-frames: one has 158gr +P LSWC-HP's, and one has 148gr wadcutters (an old Airweight).

Obviously, I'm real dogmatic on this topic... ;)
 
Tamara: Is there a reason for all the mixing of ammo for same caliber? :confused:

Do they shoot to point of aim with fixed sights or?

Most of my guns have just two types of ammo (one for expanding and one that doesn't).

My P11 though gets fed whatever is nearby since so far it feeds everything the same (malfs couple of times per box of 50). I keep hoping to find something that feeds well in it (hasn't happened yet). Oh well it will get replaced by a J frame before long anyway
 
Glamdring,

Tamara: Is there a reason for all the mixing of ammo for same caliber?
Click to expand...

Sure is; it's what was closest at hand when the gun was loaded. ;)

The Model 12 has wadcutters in it because it's an 1966-vintage alloy-frame revolver and I don't want to do anything to hasten its demise. The 158gr LSWC-HP +P's are my preferred loading, but I've bought other stuff because it was a deal or just to try out (hence the Hydrashoks and Golden Sabers.)
 
Years back, I got put on a jury for a murder trial. Weapon was a .38 snubby of low quality (RG possibly) shooting a 200gr RN. Lowest performance load in a marginal platform complete with multiple misfires. Shooter hit victim's lower chest cavity at about 10 feet. Slug cut thru nearside rib and bounced back off farside rib. Both lungs involved as well as part of heart. Victim chased shooter 20 yards before collapsing. Placement is everything.
 
380 vs 38. My most truthful answer is: Don't lose sleep over it.

Pick the gun you feel comfy with and stoke it with a reputable load.

Also, about the SP101, since you said that you will eventually load up with 357s anyway, just pick a good +P load from the Ammolabs tests or the G&A Pocketful of Dynomite article and call it a day.
 
My experience in teaching cops (6 years) and civilian CCW (9 years) is that very few if any can shoot 2" five shot 38 Special revolvers well. I not talking about just being able to hit a target but rather doing so quickly, with your +P loads, from concealment and that includes follow up shots.

I always hear the 2" 38 is just for close range use... How is it you can assure the assailant is going to cooperate and do things the way you want???

My answer to my students who ask about 2" 38s is to show them the Kel-Tec P-11. It is the same length and hight of a J-Frame S&W. It is thinner and weighs less than the steel models. Yes it has a long trigger pull, just like a DA revolver. The pull is set at 8 pounds which is better than most any DA revolver. It holds 11 rounds of 9mm, which is more effecient out of a short barrel than the black powder vintage/designed 38 Special. I won't even get into the subject of reloading as it isn't fair to the revolver. And yes, I've heard the argument that if you need to reload...blah, blah, blah. See paragraph 2 above.

Every ballistic test I've seen, done by someone with a scientific background, indicates the 2" 38 Special looses so much velocity as to be marginal at best. Despite that the dogma is to load +P rounds (less control) or go to Magnums (almost no control) to solve the problem. I don't get it, but then I don't understand people who carry 25 autos or 32 ACP either. Neither approach seems to be taking this subject seriously.

As always, YMMV!
 
or go to Magnums (almost no control) to solve the problem
Click to expand...

My recent range session with my snub SP101 disagrees.

I'm not that great of a shot but yet I was able to fire a 7 inch 5 shot group (well centered but slightly low) of 125 grain Golden Saber .357 Magnum ammo into a sillohette (sp?) target at 10 yards.

No the above won't win me any awards or competitions but I am confidant that it would have put down a BG.
 
Teaching novice shooters I can agree that there may be problems with high powered snubs. Experienced shooters have been using them for years with very good success.
Sounds like someone is playing up the semi-auto vs revolver theme, but that is good as we each are allowed our choices. Just step away from your novice shooters and look around. You will find some very good shooters using snubs very effectively.

Ability to carry more bullets means nothing when most situations are solved with very few shots fired.
The glowing ballistics most refer to for the 9mm also comes from 4" barrels, not the snub models.
 
It does kinda bring back that oft-repeated statistic, doesn't it?

I always hear the 2" 38 is just for close range use... How is it you can assure the assailant is going to cooperate and do things the way you want???
Click to expand...

You know the one, it talks about most defensive shootings happening within 21 feet.

Which seems just fine for a 2" J-Frame loaded with those horrible blackpowder-vintage heavy bullets.

It almost sounds as if a prospective CCW student in Dave's class would be run out of the class and told not to return until they had a Kel-Tec P-11. Good for the folks in Cocoa, FL, maybe they could even send Dave a buck or two...
 
The biggest difference in "power" between a 380 and a .38 is bullet weight. Just about any 38 will out penetrate a 380.

Most 380's are doing 1000fps, but with a bullet that only weighs 90 grains.

Your 38 +p LSWCHP is doing almost 900 fps, with a bullet that weighs half again as much.

.380/38 is the minimum caliber for a serious defensive pistol, and I feel the 38 edges out the 380 for novice shooters.
 
I posted this on another thead the other day

It didn't get any comments, so I hope I am not going to kill your thread also.

I recently attended the Gunsite 250 Basic Defensive Handgun course. This was my second course at Gunsite and for both courses, the facility provided a notebook filled with good information on everything from Lead exposure, to firearms safety, to more in-depth information on the course material. In both notebooks there were very interesting ballistic studies pertaining to the weapon you are training on. In this class obviously the information pertained to handgun cartridges. The studies were carried out at the California Highway Patrol Academy Weapons Training Department Indoor firing Range by Gary K. Roberts, DDS who is a Lieutenant Commander in the U.S. Naval Reserve, performing wound ballistic research and combat casualty care training. One such study included in this material was entitled; Terminal Performance of .38 Special and .380 ACP Hollow Point Bullets Intended for Law Enforcement Back-up and Off Duty Self-Defense Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant. Acceptable perfromance was arbitrarily defined as meeting both a minimum penetration of 12.0" and expansion of .55". Weapons used were a Colt Mustang Pocket Lite, S&W 60-3 with a 3" barrel and a S&W Model 38 with a 2" barrel.
Boiled down to a nutshell, the study found that All of the .380 ACP JHP bullets tested offered generally inconsistent, unacceptable terminal performance for law enforcement back-up and off duty self-defense use due to inadequate penetration, as well as inadequate expansion. In .38 Special however, he found that The .38 Special bullets which offered the most reliable wounding effects for law enforcement back-up and off duty self-defense use in revolvers of two and three inch barrel lengths and were most likely to provide rapid incapacitation were the Remington +P 158 grain LSWCHP (R38S12) and Winchester +P 147 grain JHP (RA38147HP). The Federal +P+ 147 grain "Hydra-Shok" JHP (P38HS2) bullet offers outstanding performance in revolvers with at least a 3" barrel, but should not be used in 2" barrel weapons due to insufficient expansion. The Winchester +P 138 grain JHP (SXTS35P) bullet offers acceptable performance in 2" barrel revolvers, but should not be used in longer barrel lengths due to insufficient bullet penetration.
 
I *think* the 138 Winchester has been replaced by the 130 +P Supreme. Which is a superb round.

The other one everybody forgets about is the Gold Dot, when driven fast enough and when loaded with the big-JHP-cavity variant meant for 38, versus the projectile version of the same 125grains meant for (faster) 357 use. Speer's own 38+P is good stuff, the Georgia Arms is probably the fastest, Proloads and Black Hills are known for accuracy. I'd love to see speed comparisons between the four. And they're available as a component, so you could brew 'em up weird or have Weshoot2 do likewise :).

Gold Dots are neat because they resist "over-speed problems". So if you had a 6" 357 and 38snubbie, you could load a Gold Dot 125+P in both and despite a couple hundred FPS difference, it'll work well in both. Load a Winchester 130+P Supreme 38 in a 6" tube and I'll bet you good money it'll come utterly unglued (as in, shred the nosecone, dropping back to about 40cal after expanding, lose about 25% total projectile weight).
 
accuracy/controllability out of Scandium .357 mag

First off, no, my hands do not like shooting .357 mags out of a 12 oz Scandium 340SC but I can under rapid fire and keep the five shots in an 8" paper plate-sized target at 7 yards.

That's shooting across the size of a larger living room.

Snubs take practice but with the proper training, grip technique, and repeated sessions, it pays off.
 
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Jim March,

You said that a 2" .38/.357 snubby is too big for pocket carry. Is this true of everyone? For instance a 5' 11" 165 pound guy? Have any others been able to conceal a snubby in a pocket?

Jeff
 
You said that a 2" .38/.357 snubby is too big for pocket carry. Is this true of everyone? For instance a 5' 11" 165 pound guy? Have any others been able to conceal a snubby in a pocket?
Click to expand...

I'm 6'2" 230 lbs but cant fit much more than change in the pockets of my Wranglers. Its all about what you wear.
 
My LW j-frames are loaded with 148gr wc based on the recommendation given by Dr Roberts, the testing done at www.ammolab.com, and my ability to control and shoot this round very well out to 15-20 yds.

MY belief is that for .22/.32/.380/.38spl(in a 2 inch bbl) penetration is desired more then expansion (given good shot placement) from these calibers.

regards
 
:scrutiny:

I'm 6'4", 270+ lbs and it ain't worked for me yet.

I dunno, maybe the pants type matters a lot. Once you get up past a 46" waist, your pants options drop precipitously :uhoh:.
 
I've carried my steel framed 640 and the other day I even carried my SP101 in the front pocket before! But I prefer my OWB belt holster. It's more comfortable and conceales better. I only do the pocket carry when I'm in a hurry to run to the drug-store and I don't wanna put all my "gear" on..but only for short quick trips.
 
I have been pocket carrying my Model 60 all week. I have it in a Kramer pocket holster in my right rear pocket. The butt sticks out above the pocket and is easily covered with a T-Shirt. Yesterday I did my standard range drills drawing each time from the pocket holster. It isn't as good as a belt holster, but easier to conceal. I am going to do the same drills today. Then back to the salt mines tomorrow.

I can carry this same set-up in my front pocket and it is actually comfortable and of course much more concealed. The gun is hidden from view no matter what position I am in. However, it would require to great a change for me to carry like this. For the last 25 years or so I have carried my change, my keys, and my knife in my front right pocket and I am not going to change now. I long ago designated my right hip from 90 degrees to 180 degrees as where my gun is kept. This covers everything from a standard belt holster, to an IWB, to this pocket holster; the gun is in relatively the same position at all times.
 
Anybody who can't easily carry a J-frame snubby in a proper pocket holster is either VERY diminutive (less than 3' tall) or wears pants that are WAY too tight.
Pleated-front Dockers-style pants, cargo-style pants and any number of others (NOT including tight jeans) work well.
Best.
 
I carry a j-frame is a pocket holster (mine) all the time in my right front pocket. Its easiest, for me, in jean shorts--which is my standard non-work wardrobe for about 9 months out of the year. Its hard to see when standing. When sitting (people normally dont see your pockets when sitting) there appears to be something in my pocket -- but could be about anything.

LOTS of people pocket carry -- it is definitely do-able.


Duane
www.kdholsters.com
 
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