Consider this a rant- there is something really wrong with what has been going on for too long in the Middle East, and this "road map" crap is not the solution.
Is there anyone on this board who would, if this were happening in the U.S., would not react as we did against Al Quida- and as the Israelis should against Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, or any other name these animals go by?
OK you say, it's Israel's fault for "the occupation" of "Palestinian" lands. Lets assume that BS is correct- then by God it's war and who cares who is right or wrong, fight it out and winner take all- instead of all parties slowly bleeding to death.
My own personal opinions on a solution are:
1. As stated above, if the Palestinians want a war over "their" land then go on and fight one- all out, winner takes the West Bank and Gaza, loser (and I am betting heavily on the Palestinians losing) take their collective @$$e$ into Jordan or one of the other God forsaken desert stink holes that the Arabs seem to prefer.
2. If they don't want to fight a war, then put them on trains (yah, I know- there aren't any) and ship them to Jordan, or Egypt or Saudi Arabia, or someother sand pit of their choosing- but get rid of them.
I don't care if it is their land- they lost, get over it and move on like millions of other refugees do after war- try and accomplish something other than building a better bomb belt.
You liberals will blather on about how shipping them on trains would be oh, so Nazi like. No, it's not. They wouldn't be shipped off to death camps, they'd be shipped off to someplace where they could put their given talents to use, improve their lives, get rich and buy big TV's and, if they aren't happy with that, blow up other fricken Arabs.
Besides, the Nazi's rounded up and shipped off peaceful, productive citizens whose only crime was being of a particular religious/ethnic backround- imagine if the Jews of Europe had been terrorist bombers and sympathizers. The world would have cared even less about their fate than they did!
Anyway, I'm sick and tired of the whole revolting mess- I say U.S. help Israel win, or get the he11 out of the way and LET them win.
Then "negotiate" a peace.
End of rant- below you can find a (probably) better written and somewhat less angry one.
http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=8331
The Return of "Tolerable Carnageâ€
By Steven Plaut
FrontPageMagazine.com | June 12, 2003
The terrorists have struck against Israel once again. Yesterday witnessed yet another suicide bombing, this one on an Israeli bus in Jerusalem, killing at least 16 people and wounding dozens more.
As Yoggi Berra would say, it is déjà vu all over again.
Once again, a “ceasefire†is being proposed in which Arabs can go on killing Jews while the whole world demands that the Jews refrain from shooting back to kill their murderers.
Where have we heard this formula before? And exactly how many murders of Israeli children should be considered tolerable and “within reason�
“Tolerable levels of carnage†have been the basis of every Israeli “ceasefire agreement†with the Arabs over the past decade. The Oslo Accords with the PLO were clearly based on controlled carnage. The PLO went through some rhetorical hoops and issued some duplicitous “denunciations†of terror, but soon enough it and its Islamist affiliates returned to their routine of murder and bombing.
All the deals worked out by Israel with the Hizbollah and Lebanon were similar. Before Ehud Barak’s 2000 capitulation in Lebanon, when Israel agreed to a unilateral withdrawal in exchange for diddly squat, a similar “tolerable level of carnage" agreement was in place there with the Hizbollah. Hizbollah could murder a few Israeli soldiers each week, but as long as they only rarely fired shells into civilian towns in northern Israel, Israel agreed to take no meaningful action against Hizbollah, its bases and its Syrian (let alone Iranian) puppet masters.
Ever since Ehud Barak’s parody of Dunkirk, the same rules have applied in Lebanon. Hizbollah has murdered Israeli civilians along the border since the Israeli total withdrawal from southern Lebanon. It has kidnapped several Israeli soldiers as well as one civilian, and it fires anti-aircraft shells into Israel almost every day. These shells have injured and killed. But under “tolerable levels of carnage†deals, Israel does nothing in response.
It is not exactly a serendipitous revelation that as part of the ballyhooed “Road Map,†yet another Oslo deal is being struck now - under the extortionate pressure on Israel being applied by the United States – and once again it is to be a “tolerable level of carnage†arrangement. How do we know? Because the Ariel Sharon’s Chief of Staff of the Prime Minister’s Office, attorney Dov Weisglass, confirmed so recently in an interview with the IMRA news service. His exact words were, "All we are asking the PA (Palestinian Authority) to do is to reduce terrorism to a tolerable level." He did not spell out how many murders of Jewish children he would regard as tolerable.
I doubt that anyone seriously thought the U.S. was going to condition its diktats to Israel regarding the Road Map on the Palestinians actually foregoing the pleasure of murdering Jews. It was pretty obvious from the start that the White House and the State Department would settle for some duplicitous statement from Arafat or from his new figleaf – the “Prime Minister†Abu Mazen - expressing vague "regret" for homocide bombings. The U.S. would ask for private PLO assurances that they really are doing their utmost to track down the terrorists. The Hamas leaders like the one Israel tried to assassinate this week (and angered President Bush in the process) are the same Hamas and Jihad leaders Arafat himself was supposed to whack under the Oslo Accords. The PLO can never seem to find Hamas and Jihad terror leaders, unlike the CNN and BBC camera crews. After a few weeks of this charade, the U.S. will announce that the PLO has done everything it reasonably can be expected to do.
The PLO is already insisting that it can not take more effective action against the terrorists (most of whom these days are from the PLO factions under Arafat’s and Abu Mazen’s direct command and control), because its security apparatus has been crippled by Israeli reprisal actions. Even after Abu Mazen “took over,†not a day has gone by without new Palestinian atrocities, most carried out by Arafat’s own tightly controlled militias. The White House will eventually agree with the PLO’s posturing and insist that now it is Israel’s turn to demonstrate its good will by agreeing to new concessions to the PLO, new appeasements and “goodwill gestures.†In particular, it will demand that Israel once again abide by a unilateral ceasefire in which “tolerable levels of carnage†are observed. Hence, the Jewish state of Israel will be the only country on earth whose anti-terrorist defense policy is to be governed by the principles of pure Christianity, turning of the other cheek at every offense.
The Road Map is based on demands that Israel voluntarily insert its neck into a noose for the sake of peace, while the Arabs solemnly promise never to pull on the rope. The U.S. will guarantee that the Arabs will not pull that rope, unless of course the State Department again loses the document with the guarantee, like it did in 1967. You may recall that after the U.S. guaranteed for Israel in 1957 that the Straits of Tiran would remain open if Israel withdrew from Sinai at that time. The Straits were closed by Egypt to Israeli shipping in 1967 in an act of war. The State Department did not take military action on Israel's behalf.
In 1957 Israel sacrificed strategic assets, land, lives, and treasure in order to deliver a goodwill gesture to the Arabs, in exchange for U.S. guarantees. Those guarantees proved worthless. And similar guarantees to check Arabs terrorism after the implementation of the “Road Map†may, too, prove worthless, as the terrorists unleash a new war of annihilation against Israel.
http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=8331
Is there anyone on this board who would, if this were happening in the U.S., would not react as we did against Al Quida- and as the Israelis should against Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, or any other name these animals go by?
OK you say, it's Israel's fault for "the occupation" of "Palestinian" lands. Lets assume that BS is correct- then by God it's war and who cares who is right or wrong, fight it out and winner take all- instead of all parties slowly bleeding to death.
My own personal opinions on a solution are:
1. As stated above, if the Palestinians want a war over "their" land then go on and fight one- all out, winner takes the West Bank and Gaza, loser (and I am betting heavily on the Palestinians losing) take their collective @$$e$ into Jordan or one of the other God forsaken desert stink holes that the Arabs seem to prefer.
2. If they don't want to fight a war, then put them on trains (yah, I know- there aren't any) and ship them to Jordan, or Egypt or Saudi Arabia, or someother sand pit of their choosing- but get rid of them.
I don't care if it is their land- they lost, get over it and move on like millions of other refugees do after war- try and accomplish something other than building a better bomb belt.
You liberals will blather on about how shipping them on trains would be oh, so Nazi like. No, it's not. They wouldn't be shipped off to death camps, they'd be shipped off to someplace where they could put their given talents to use, improve their lives, get rich and buy big TV's and, if they aren't happy with that, blow up other fricken Arabs.
Besides, the Nazi's rounded up and shipped off peaceful, productive citizens whose only crime was being of a particular religious/ethnic backround- imagine if the Jews of Europe had been terrorist bombers and sympathizers. The world would have cared even less about their fate than they did!
Anyway, I'm sick and tired of the whole revolting mess- I say U.S. help Israel win, or get the he11 out of the way and LET them win.
Then "negotiate" a peace.
End of rant- below you can find a (probably) better written and somewhat less angry one.
http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=8331
The Return of "Tolerable Carnageâ€
By Steven Plaut
FrontPageMagazine.com | June 12, 2003
The terrorists have struck against Israel once again. Yesterday witnessed yet another suicide bombing, this one on an Israeli bus in Jerusalem, killing at least 16 people and wounding dozens more.
As Yoggi Berra would say, it is déjà vu all over again.
Once again, a “ceasefire†is being proposed in which Arabs can go on killing Jews while the whole world demands that the Jews refrain from shooting back to kill their murderers.
Where have we heard this formula before? And exactly how many murders of Israeli children should be considered tolerable and “within reason�
“Tolerable levels of carnage†have been the basis of every Israeli “ceasefire agreement†with the Arabs over the past decade. The Oslo Accords with the PLO were clearly based on controlled carnage. The PLO went through some rhetorical hoops and issued some duplicitous “denunciations†of terror, but soon enough it and its Islamist affiliates returned to their routine of murder and bombing.
All the deals worked out by Israel with the Hizbollah and Lebanon were similar. Before Ehud Barak’s 2000 capitulation in Lebanon, when Israel agreed to a unilateral withdrawal in exchange for diddly squat, a similar “tolerable level of carnage" agreement was in place there with the Hizbollah. Hizbollah could murder a few Israeli soldiers each week, but as long as they only rarely fired shells into civilian towns in northern Israel, Israel agreed to take no meaningful action against Hizbollah, its bases and its Syrian (let alone Iranian) puppet masters.
Ever since Ehud Barak’s parody of Dunkirk, the same rules have applied in Lebanon. Hizbollah has murdered Israeli civilians along the border since the Israeli total withdrawal from southern Lebanon. It has kidnapped several Israeli soldiers as well as one civilian, and it fires anti-aircraft shells into Israel almost every day. These shells have injured and killed. But under “tolerable levels of carnage†deals, Israel does nothing in response.
It is not exactly a serendipitous revelation that as part of the ballyhooed “Road Map,†yet another Oslo deal is being struck now - under the extortionate pressure on Israel being applied by the United States – and once again it is to be a “tolerable level of carnage†arrangement. How do we know? Because the Ariel Sharon’s Chief of Staff of the Prime Minister’s Office, attorney Dov Weisglass, confirmed so recently in an interview with the IMRA news service. His exact words were, "All we are asking the PA (Palestinian Authority) to do is to reduce terrorism to a tolerable level." He did not spell out how many murders of Jewish children he would regard as tolerable.
I doubt that anyone seriously thought the U.S. was going to condition its diktats to Israel regarding the Road Map on the Palestinians actually foregoing the pleasure of murdering Jews. It was pretty obvious from the start that the White House and the State Department would settle for some duplicitous statement from Arafat or from his new figleaf – the “Prime Minister†Abu Mazen - expressing vague "regret" for homocide bombings. The U.S. would ask for private PLO assurances that they really are doing their utmost to track down the terrorists. The Hamas leaders like the one Israel tried to assassinate this week (and angered President Bush in the process) are the same Hamas and Jihad leaders Arafat himself was supposed to whack under the Oslo Accords. The PLO can never seem to find Hamas and Jihad terror leaders, unlike the CNN and BBC camera crews. After a few weeks of this charade, the U.S. will announce that the PLO has done everything it reasonably can be expected to do.
The PLO is already insisting that it can not take more effective action against the terrorists (most of whom these days are from the PLO factions under Arafat’s and Abu Mazen’s direct command and control), because its security apparatus has been crippled by Israeli reprisal actions. Even after Abu Mazen “took over,†not a day has gone by without new Palestinian atrocities, most carried out by Arafat’s own tightly controlled militias. The White House will eventually agree with the PLO’s posturing and insist that now it is Israel’s turn to demonstrate its good will by agreeing to new concessions to the PLO, new appeasements and “goodwill gestures.†In particular, it will demand that Israel once again abide by a unilateral ceasefire in which “tolerable levels of carnage†are observed. Hence, the Jewish state of Israel will be the only country on earth whose anti-terrorist defense policy is to be governed by the principles of pure Christianity, turning of the other cheek at every offense.
The Road Map is based on demands that Israel voluntarily insert its neck into a noose for the sake of peace, while the Arabs solemnly promise never to pull on the rope. The U.S. will guarantee that the Arabs will not pull that rope, unless of course the State Department again loses the document with the guarantee, like it did in 1967. You may recall that after the U.S. guaranteed for Israel in 1957 that the Straits of Tiran would remain open if Israel withdrew from Sinai at that time. The Straits were closed by Egypt to Israeli shipping in 1967 in an act of war. The State Department did not take military action on Israel's behalf.
In 1957 Israel sacrificed strategic assets, land, lives, and treasure in order to deliver a goodwill gesture to the Arabs, in exchange for U.S. guarantees. Those guarantees proved worthless. And similar guarantees to check Arabs terrorism after the implementation of the “Road Map†may, too, prove worthless, as the terrorists unleash a new war of annihilation against Israel.
http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=8331
