The Second Amendment doesn't guarantee the right to get arms, true or false? (Moved from Legal)

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The militiaman provided his own firearm, the requirement was it could not be "bastard bore" in the language of the day, i.e. it must be .75 caliber-the Brown Bess which would have been familiar to many of them.
 
So, the question would be does the 2nd Amendment reference "The people" as collectively those comprised of militia units protecting the "free state" or as individuals?

Incredible how one sentence contains so much interpretation when you really drill down.

There's nothing to interpret. "The People" refers to individuals every other time it appears, so to anyone with three functioning brain cells to rub together it would quite obviously mean the same here as well.
 
So, the question would be does the 2nd Amendment reference "The people" as collectively those comprised of militia units protecting the "free state" or as individuals?

Incredible how one sentence contains so much interpretation when you really drill down.
The answer is to diagram the sentence. To whom does the “right” (subject of the sentence) belong? It is “of the people “ - not a militia. Why is it that “the right “ “shall not be infringed “(the verb “- because “a well regulated militia “ is necessary for the “security of a free state “
 
Did anyone else think of any of this when Biden's speech (on MLK Day) referred his concept of what the 2nd Amendment meant?

Politicians of all stripes will say whatever they think is appealing to their target audience. Placing confidence in their prognostications as fact is a fool's errand, though it's never a good idea to ignore the message they are trying to sell. When they say their dream world is X-Y-Z & involves taking something from people (money, freedoms, property) there's a fair chance the means is true even if the outcome is not.
 
Just as people were brought up to properly introduce themselves and their guests in that era, a formal document or statement was "introduced" with a preamble, which set the stage. That brief preliminary statement placed the statement in context and explained its relevance. A well-regulated militia meant a capable group that could be called upon to defend the nation against enemies, and it would be necessary that the members of the group were competent in the use of arms. Use of arms was encouraged by availability, so in the best interests of the nation.

We will be revisiting that historical background in the next few years, and I hope it will improve and refresh our understanding of the sacrifices made and the hard-won wisdom of the founding fathers.
 
So, the question would be does the 2nd Amendment reference "The people" as collectively those comprised of militia units protecting the "free state" or as individuals?
The accepted view in 1791 was that "the people" was synonymous with "the militia." That is, that the militia was supposed to be universal. It didn't work out that way, but that's beside the point.

The loose organization of the militia meant that it was really a collection of individuals. (Which is precisely why it didn't work out.)
 
The answer is to diagram the sentence. To whom does the “right” (subject of the sentence) belong? It is “of the people “ - not a militia. Why is it that “the right “ “shall not be infringed “(the verb “- because “a well regulated militia “ is necessary for the “security of a free state “

Just a linguistics point here...

Diagram the sentence according to which linguistic standards?

Modern English has drifted a bit over the last quarter millennium. The use of commas back then was a bit more..."free spirited"...than it is these days.

I'm not saying I disagree with the meaning of the Second Amendment, just that it's meaning comes most accurately from historical context.
 
The militiaman provided his own firearm, the requirement was it could not be "bastard bore" in the language of the day, i.e. it must be .75 caliber-the Brown Bess which would have been familiar to many of them.
Except that the French used .69 caliber as the standard, which is what the U.S. ended up adopting. I think another requirement was that the musket be capable of taking a bayonet. Unless the militiaman insisted that he was a rifleman, in which case the bayonet could be dispensed with.
 
I don't think there was any question as to what the amendment meant prior to the 1960s. Schools and media have done a fair job of convincing people otherwise since then.
When I was in law school (University of Texas) in the 1960's, the 2nd Amendment wasn't even mentioned in my Constitutional Law class. It was generally considered to be a dead letter. Probably the only organization talking about the 2nd Amendment then was the National Rifle Association.

That began to change among the legal profession in the decade of the 80's. A watershed event was the 1989 publication of an article by Sanford Levinson (a professor at the UT Law School) in the Yale Law Journal, entitled "The Embarrassing Second Amendment." Levinson, a gun control advocate, reluctantly concluded that the RKBA was an individual right.

Here's a summary of the debate among legal scholars and historians around that time (this was before the Heller decision):

Against their own liberal political inclinations, some legal scholars have reluctantly concluded that in its claim that the Second Amendment protects individual Americans’ right to bear arms, the National Rifle Association is not far off target.

"A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State," the amendment famously states, "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." To University of Texas law professor Sanford Levinson, a liberal Democrat who backs many gun control measures, the "embarrassing" Second Amendment (as the title of his seminal 1989 Yale Law Journal article put it) empowers individual citizens to own guns to defend themselves and, if necessary, counter government tyranny. This individual right to bear arms, adds Joyce Lee Malcolm, a historian at Bentley College in Massachusetts, traces back to the 1689 English Bill of Rights.

In recent years, legal scholars--including Laurence Tribe, the prominent liberal Harvard University professor of constitutional law--"have turned en masse" to this "individual rights" reading, making it the so-called Standard Model interpretation of the amendment, reports Mooney, a freelance writer based in New Orleans. Alluding to this scholarship, a federal district court judge in Texas last year "delivered an unprecedented ruling in defense of the individual’s right to bear arms," says Mooney. If the ruling survives an appeals court’s decision this spring, the case may well go to the Supreme Court.

But some American historians now contend that the Standard Model interpretation--which regards "militia" as standing, not for a select group like the modern National Guard, but rather for "the whole people"--is at odds with history. Saul Cornell, of Ohio State University, questions whether any consensus existed in post-revolutionary America on the right to bear arms. In Pennsylvania, he notes, a stringent loyalty oath effectively disarmed up to 40 percent of the citizenry. Michael Bellesiles, of Emory University, maintains that only a small percentage of Americans then even owned firearms--only about 14 percent of white, Protestant men in New England and Pennsylvania, according to 11,000 probate records filed between 1765 and 1850.
http://archive.wilsonquarterly.com/in-essence/embarrassing-second-amendment
 
Use of probate records to track transfer of firearms in that era would seem even less convincing than in this era. The tradition of giving guns to one's offspring, of building guns, and of bartering and transferring without paperwork was so universal then that I cannot imagine teasing real numbers from the relatively few probate transfers. What is not difficult to anticipate, however, is that some scholarly types will naturally be inclined to draw different conclusions, and some will be compensated to cast doubt on the historical references. If, however, firearm ownership and use were unusual, it should have been a simple task to curtail firearms altogether during the prohibition era, rather than prohibiting only machine guns and the silly constructs of short barrel rifles and short barrel shotguns.

I am sure all will have an opportunity to tell their stories, and the courts will decide which accounts are the more credible.
 
Since I see the militia keep being mentioned, we need to take into account that every abled body male between 17 and 45 who are citizens or have declared their intention to become citizens ARE the unorganized militia.

And the Militia Act of 1903 is still valid and is still law.

§246. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are—

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title10/subtitleA/part1/chapter12&edition=prelim

And for military retirees and certain other military veterans, we are subject to recall too.

The original intent of the unorganized militia is still valid to this day.
 
I'm not sure why we are still debating what we "think" the 2A means. SCOTUS has already answered and settled most of the debates and concerns brought up in this thread. Many of you are debating moot points.
 
Because no matter what SCOTUS thinks, says, does, or proclaims......
....the anti-2A continues to willfully say/write/publish just the opposite.... repeated over & over & over... in the mass media/"social" media.

regardless of facts... gaslighting the increasingly ignorant electorate has real effects
 
Because no matter what SCOTUS thinks, says, does, or proclaims......
....the anti-2A continues to willfully say/write/publish just the opposite.... repeated over & over & over... in the mass media/"social" media.

regardless of facts... gaslighting the increasingly ignorant electorate has real effects
Well then we should be responding with what SCOTUS already interpreted the Second Amendment to men were applicable instead debating our vs the ainties' personal interpretations of the Second Amendment means. Our and their personal opinion and interpretations don't count for nothing and is a waste of time IMHO. The U.S. Constitution gave SCOTUS that power. I rather argue indisputable facts based on case law and and SCOTUS ruling instead of debate unwavering opinions.
 
87 posts and I don't any mention of "The Federalist Papers" The wording and meaning behind the Second Amendment is debated and the wording written (and rewritten). The Militia both Organized and unorganized are defined.
Yeah, you know -- most of us simply presume that we're all already aware of, and have read, these writings. As any number of of us have stated in the thread, WE are not the ones still debating the definitions and intent -- it's the other side.
 
So, the question would be does the 2nd Amendment reference "The people" as collectively those comprised of militia units protecting the "free state" or as individuals?

Incredible how one sentence contains so much interpretation when you really drill down.
The "collective right" theory is a fraud.

Believing it requires you to buy the idea that the author of the Bill of Rights used the phrase "the right of the people" to mean one thing in the First Amendment, used the exact same phrase to mean something 180 degrees opposite in the Second, then did another flip-flop back to the original meaning in the Fourth. It's simply ridiculous.
 
The "collective right" theory is a fraud.

Believing it requires you to buy the idea that the author of the Bill of Rights used the phrase "the right of the people" to mean one thing in the First Amendment, used the exact same phrase to mean something 180 degrees opposite in the Second, then did another flip-flop back to the original meaning in the Fourth. It's simply ridiculous.
If you consider that "the people" is synonymous with "the militia" (which apparently was the viewpoint of the Founders), then you don't have a problem with "collective" versus "individual." Individuals have their right to arms secured through their putative (notional) membership in the militia. This is important, because it means that they're entitled to own the same weapons that the army uses. (Goodbye NFA.)

The "2nd Amendment militia" is not the National Guard, nor for that matter any organized militia. It exists only in theory, but it includes everyone. That's how you get an individual right without ignoring or belittling the Militia Clause (as Justice Scalia did in the Heller case). We need to start giving due weight to the Militia Clause, and using it to our benefit.
 
Michael Bellesiles, of Emory University, maintains that only a small percentage of Americans then even owned firearms--only about 14 percent of white, Protestant men in New England and Pennsylvania, according to 11,000 probate records filed between 1765 and 1850.
Bellesiles's work has been discredited. His sources either didn't exist, or if they did, didn't say what he said they did.
 
Bellesiles's work has been discredited. His sources either didn't exist, or if they did, didn't say what he said they did.
I agree. On its face, his methodology is worthless. Just because firearms weren't mentioned in probated wills, doesn't mean that people didn't have them. Guns are the sort of thing that would have been passed informally to children, rather than going through a probate estate. And besides, most people weren't wealthy enough to have probated estates in the first place.
 
If you consider that "the people" is synonymous with "the militia" (which apparently was the viewpoint of the Founders), then you don't have a problem with "collective" versus "individual." Individuals have their right to arms secured through their putative (notional) membership in the militia. This is important, because it means that they're entitled to own the same weapons that the army uses. (Goodbye NFA.)

The "2nd Amendment militia" is not the National Guard, nor for that matter any organized militia. It exists only in theory, but it includes everyone. That's how you get an individual right without ignoring or belittling the Militia Clause (as Justice Scalia did in the Heller case). We need to start giving due weight to the Militia Clause, and using it to our benefit.

Are you saying that the Founders considered "the people" and "the militia" interchangeable all the time, or just in the 2A?
 
Are you saying that the Founders considered "the people" and "the militia" interchangeable all the time, or just in the 2A?
Good point.

The mention of a militia in the main body of the Constitution (see the following excerpt from Article I, section 8, relating to the powers of Congress) implies that they're talking about an organized militia.

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
The 2nd Amendment, in contrast, is talking about a universal, unorganized militia. The writings of the Founders point in that direction. This would be the armed base from which the organized militia would be drawn.
 
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