The Shrinking World of the 1911?

[CZF]

While the 1911 and .45 ACP are a grand combo and
has seen an exploding popularity in the past years
among those in the USA.

Few people outside of the Americas, use the 1911
or the .45 ACP cartridge.

Even in S. Africa, the .45 now takes a backseat to 9mm
and the .40s for CCW and especially police use.

Some think that the modern JHPs in 9mm and .40
take away any 'edge' that the .45 ACP has
had in stopping power in the past decades.

Most Europeans can't CCW, but they do have 1911s or other .45s at Gun Clubs.However, you can bet that the 9mms outnumber them.

Is the low capacity and antiquated design of the 1911, coupled with the rather slow .45 ACP ( even in JHP form ) worth a person's time and effort?

 

[ny32182]

Look down the list of topics in this forum alone, and I think you will have your answer about the "shrinking" world of the 1911. On a board dedicated to ALL autoloaders, 1911 specific topics DOMINATE the rest.

 

[natedog]

Instead of looking at a weapons age, look at it's pros and cons.

Following that logic, a knife is so outdated it shouldn't even be lethal anymore.

 

[Tom Servo]

Part of it is that the .45 is considered an "American" round, and never caught on much outside the US. I seem to remember it being a red-letter day when Sig started chambering the P220 for it.

Also, never underestimate economic influence. While American companies have, until recently, owned the military and LE markets here, European companies have dominated abroad. The majority of Sigs, CZs, etc have been chambered for 9mm. That, and the 9mm has always been the most ubiquitous and cheap handgun round out there.

The .45's a solid round with an established track-record, though, and I don't see it going away anytime soon.

 

[Boats]

I see it this way. Armies who carry a lot and shoot but a little generally adopted the 9mm, though the Germans and Brits finally got around to popping off a few billion rounds.

The .45ACP was a cavalry gun that has long outlived its horse mounted origins. It was built not to be a status badge, like a Euro officer's piece, but as a fight stopper when used on a man or his horse in up close and personal circumstances, a reputation it lives up to even to this day with the US Special Forces and certain Marine units. The .45ACP was merely the semi-automatic's answer to the big bore cavalry pistols Americans had tended to carry from Colt -Walker revolver on up.

We prefer to drop the targets we hit, not just puncture them.

Americans, who, if the rest of the world is to be believed, actually shoot a lot of people annually, home and abroad. The shocking statistic one can readily find in BATF sales data is that among the "duty" calibers, 9mm is the most commonly sold pistol in the United States. Why? I tend to think it is for the same reason I have two--they are especially cheap to feed so I shoot them when I don't feel like reloading to go to the range. My C&L capable CZ-85B is like a 9mm "practice kit" for my .45ACPs as I can work an identical manual of arms, sight picture, breathing, and what have you, without the expense of shooting .45ACP all day. So many shooters use the 9mm, but most serious shooters are big bore fans.

Even the military is unlearning some of the New Age crap they picked up. The .45ACp is used by the bloody edge of the spear, while the 9mm is the lowest common denominator pistol. Even the 5.56 is under serious scrutiny for replacement by something that packs more weight and diameter. Too bad had to relearn the meaning of being undergunned over the last 40 years.


Since no bureaucracy, (except the Domestic Goddess) budgets what I can have for self-defense. When I carry on the streets, or when something goes bump in the night, I leave that hi-cap wondernine in the safe where it belongs and fill my fist with a serious fighting piece--the ubiquitous 1911A1. Capacity without power means squat to me, and if I ever want high capacity I can get that in a .45ACP format too.

 

[PCRCCW]

CZF,
I know of your outlook in regards to the 1911......nothing new buddy...

But as a fellow CZ head and lover of things that go boom. I have a different feel for them........
First Ill say that the beavertail/grip safety does bite some people and that may turn some people off to the long living platform.........to them get a CZ.....

I think the gun is a very cool design.....very few guns can be stripped to the very core of its mechanical soul as easily as a 1911......a makarov is very close.
This is very appealing......also anyone with a curiosity and a bit of apptitude can do alot of their own gun smithing and be very successful in the process.

Its grip and ergonomics are what most modern guns are modeled after......BHP, Sigs, CZ's etc all have the same grip angle and it works........

I think the gun has a history that simply wont die........personally, If I had to have one gun.....Id be hard pressed to pick between my CZ SA Custom or my STI Trojan that are no longer.......that said.......Im sure this thread will be very .........er, ..........popular.

Shoot well.......

 

[Shootcraps]

Few people outside of the Americas, use the 1911
or the .45 ACP cartridge.

And why should we give a crap about what they use?

Is the low capacity and antiquated design of the 1911, coupled with the rather slow .45 ACP ( even in JHP form ) worth a person's time and effort?

You wanna stand in front of me and let me shoot you with my .45? I think you'll learn the answer to that one rather quickly.

 

[Safety First]

Wouldn't you know it, Just as I am getting the hots to buy my first 1911 I find out few people outside of the Americas are buying 1911 45's...So I guess I should fall in line with the others and just be happy with my Sig 9mm..... NAH, Love my fast moving 9mm,but I really would like one of those slow moving JHP"s in 45 flavor for personal defense.

 

[R.H. Lee]

The .45 acp in the 1911 platform takes a certain amount of maturity to appreciate. You may have to go through a series of wondernines and plastic pistols before you get there.

 

[rbernie]

Is the low capacity and antiquated design of the 1911, coupled with the rather slow .45 ACP ( even in JHP form ) worth a person's time and effort?

In the last three years, I've sold off the CZ 75/97/PCR/Compact, Glock 17/19/22, the Sigs, the Astra, the HiPower, the XD, and goodness knows how many revolvers. Why? To make room for lots and lots of 1911-pattern pistols (one of which, by the way, is a prancing pony chambered in 9mm).

It's just that much better.

 

[Ky Larry]

You're right, CZF. Few people outside the U.S. use the 1911/.45ACP combo.So what?

 

[Dr.Rob]

So antiquated that Colt, SW, Kimber, SW, Dan wesson and Sig are making them, not to mention full custom guns.

yeah it's just a fad.

 

[Jspy]

I wonder how many people who shoot in pistol competitions of one sort or another use something other than a 1911 style pistol. It would seem that the basic design and works of the 1911 make it more of a "project" gun than say a Sig, HK, etc. Always some sort of way to customize to your own satisfaction if you will. Hell, just the grip options can make it seem like a totally different pistol. Ah yes, there's just something about that feel that you just don't get with that "plastic" gun.

 

[PaleRyder]

I'll stick with the .45. I care less what the rest of the world uses, or says, or cares, for that matter.
I'm for pulling out of the UN too, but that's another story.

 

[Pilot]

I've got a lot of 9MM's. A BHP, two P7's, two CZ-75 pattern pistols, P5, P-08 and even a C-96 chambered in 9MM. What ALWAYS goes to the range with me? My 1911A1. Its just that good and I reload, so ammo cost isn't a big deal.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

The age of the 1911 gets brought up on a continual basis as it was here in the original post where the design was called antiquated. The age of a design is not really relevant so long as the design works. There are countless examples, but things like interchangible parts manufacturing, the wheel, plumbing, etc. are all OLD concepts and designs, but still useful.

FYI, the 9 mm round is older than the .45 acp. So why would you use antiquated ammo? It is a spoof query, but makes my point.

To this I would ask about the velocity issue. The .45 is a slower round. Why is that necessarily a bad thing? At double the weight of a typical 115 gr 9 mm round, it carries well beyond half the speed. So you get more energy out of the .45 acp than the 9 mm.

 

[MrMurphy]

The Big Fat Slow .45, like other .44/.45 caliber rounds of it's day are proven performers. Hit someone with one or two .44-40s, .455 Webleys, .45 Colt or .45 ACP rounds. The fight generally stops if you aimed right.

9mms will certainly do the trick (I've seen a number of people killed by them), but I will always take a .45 or a .40 first when I have a choice.


The .45 has been used all over the world. But both times, we took them all home with us after the wars were over.

Heard of the rumor that Nato's ditching the 9mm for the .40 S&W for more "stopping power" in the same size gun? Except they're going to call it "The 10mm Nato" since they're all metric, and .40 S&W sounds "TOO AMERICAN!"

Pretty much all modern pistols borrow something from the ergonomics of the 1911 design. Beavertails, thumb operated mag release, etc.

 

[armoredman]

I had two 1911s, a Springfield 1911A1, and a Colt Series 70, years ago. I liked the feel of Old Slabsides, and the accuracy was good. With the ammunition of yore, the 45 was the choice, as 9mm ball would zip on through, and 40 hadn't been invented yet. BUT, I don't like SA only autos, so I kept looking for the "magic" pistol" that would fit me perfect with good stopping power.
I started reading Evan Marshall, and discovered that morgue results showed stopping power among the big three, 9mm/40/45, to be almost identical WHEN USING GOOD AMMO. The ball ammo differances were still there, but with HydraShok, CorBon, or Golden Saber, the percentage differances were quite small, and took things back to the most basic level, shot placement. I had been carrying a .40 SW for 13 years, loving it, and then got my 9mm CZ 75 PO1, the gun my hand was designed for. Now I have total confidence in it, even with the Winchester 115gr JHP, and when I go to Fed EFMJ, I will still feel the same high confidence.
I have no beef with anyone who carries a 45, 40, 38, 357, or 32 - shoot what you can hit with. The very old saying goes, "I'd rather be missed with a 45 than hit with a 22!"
One the last note, I do believe the 1911 is a shrinking market for NEW shooters, as it is an expert's gun. many who shoot for years find the 1911 eventually, and many will buy one. I see this not happening overseas for a few reasons.
1) Lack of shooting - hard to get a pistol overseas with draconian rules and regs, so why go with something that requires study and practice?
2) Lack of availability - 1911 pattern pistols are produced here, or for the American market, with the exceptions of the Ballister Molina/Rigaud series, and the Star 1911 patterns issued over the years. With the overwhelming market share overseas of the CZ, Beretta, Tanfolgio, and other DA/SA guns, it's not a wonder the 1911 isn't prevelant.
3) Last, it's an American design. They don't like us - screw 'em - we'll be happy to keep our 1911 pistols, and leave them all the Grocks....
Now I have to go shoot my Czech made CZ75 PO1.......

 

[dairycreek]

There is no doubt that the world favors 9mm.

But as the USA is still the main handgun purchasing nation in the world it hardly seems that the 1911 is shrinking away to nothing. Quite the contrary it seems. A number of manufacturing firms, including a number of European manufacturers carry a 1911 in their sales line. And, it seems, that new model 1911's are being introduced quite regularly. After all these years the 1911 is still going strong. Good shooting

 

[joegerardi]

Hmm, let's see...

Glock, SIG, CZ, H&K, Taurus, and I'm sure other manufacturers ALL offer .45 caliber models, most in multple incarnations of styles. All manufacturers ouside the US.

Must be becausethey figure only US citizens will want them. THAT'S why they go through the whole R&D process, testing, marketing, and distribution.

SIG recently introduced its version of a 1911-pattern. H&K is working on one.

Yup. Outmoded, that's what it is.

Frankly, I don't give a rat's ass what Europe or the rest of the world favors. Wanky little calibers for wanky little people with a wannabe "I hate America" attitude.

I love my P228, P99, USP, P01 PT92, G17, all 9mm. I also love my 5 1911's. If a furball occurs, I want something that's going to put a hole in someone the size of their thumb.

As to slow, I've yet to meet anyone that can run 800+ feet per second.

A Semi hitting you car at 10 MPH will cause considerably more damage than a Yugo hitting it at 15.

..Joe

 

[wasrjoe]

Wow, you people act like he spit on your mother.

 

[MrMurphy]

My mother would kill him herself if he did.


Worse, he spit on my favorite caliber and gun.

 

[Fatelvis]

Let the rest of the world use thier 9mms. Ill just smile and nod, knowing I carry the better weapon, the 1911 45 ACP!

 

[Dave Sample]

Ho Hum. And you can quote me.

 

[armoredman]

Has anyones' non 1911 done this? http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=107550
None of my Witness nor CZs ever did - just curious.....