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The slide on my M&P is rusting

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Magic_Man, Aug 13, 2010.

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  1. REAPER4206969

    REAPER4206969 Member

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    Pics of what? I manage to get the rust off of it, but you may notice minor pitting on the grip safety. It's blaze orange before I clean it.

    SW1911-4.jpg

    You will also note that all controls have been replaced (they rust too.)
     
  2. Boris bush

    Boris bush member

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    So true. When the front sight on my Glock perfection got loose I went to the funstore to pickup a metal one that screws on. They even offered to put it on for free for me. I told them I can do it and thanked them. If I were to have kept the gun in the safe constantly the sight would not have come loose. I could have called Glock and sent it in.

    Now I have this fangled glowing thingy on the front of my gun because no one even asks for the Glock steel front sight. Everyone wants to be a ninja and see their sights when a target can not be identified. Nice thing about it is in 12-14 years it will fade out.......
     
  3. Full Metal Jacket

    Full Metal Jacket member

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    i noticed some red spots around the circumference of the safety plunger on my glock 19, and on the locking block. wonder if that's rust?? the plating is flaking off on the safety plunger where the red is...
     
  4. Boris bush

    Boris bush member

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    Might be. The copper lube used at the factory is sometimes mistaken as rust too.

    Got pics?
     
  5. REAPER4206969

    REAPER4206969 Member

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    1)Copper anti-seize

    2)Copper strike under the nickle plating (normal.)
     
  6. Full Metal Jacket

    Full Metal Jacket member

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    alright, appreciate it. it didn't exactly look like rust. wasn't sure. glad to hear it.
     
  7. Nail Shooter

    Nail Shooter Member

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    Well, I'll throw in my .02 here.

    I have an M&P40c also. I sent it in to Smith for functional issues and it came back in its tupperware box wrapped in one of those brown anti rust treated papers. I unwrapped it to find a speck of rust started on the side of the slide! Yes, the finish is in fact crap on these guns. Too bad as it shoots well and feels wonderful in the hand. I really believe that if I carried this gun it would look like the OP's pictures in a few days.

    I have carried/handled a G27 Glock daily for two yrs and NEVER wipe it down--it does not rust and it is not "stainless". None of my other 5 Glocks has ever rusted and I don't wipe them down daily with oil either.

    I have a Sig that will rust, too, if I don't wipe it down after every time I touch it and hose it with silicone spray. The finish on the Glocks truly is superior. Regards,

    Nail
     
  8. Narwhal

    Narwhal Member

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    Maybe I've been lucky but I have 4 M&P's, carry them all the time IWB and haven't had rusting issues. The first thing I do when I get any gun is strip it apart and give all the metal a bath in CLP. I let the CLP soak in for at least 3-4 hours, then wipe it down. I haven't had any guns rust since I started doing this. I also wipe a gun down with oil once a week if I've been carrying it a lot. The only gun that has rusted on me is an 870 express that got squirted with a super soaker.
     
  9. Coronach

    Coronach Moderator Emeritus

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    The M&Ps seem to have some issue with variable rust resistance. We carry the M&P at work. I got caught out in a rainstorm with three other officers once. We all got the same amount of wet, and by the time we had a chance to look at our guns, we were already dry, so we forgot about it. The next day at roll call, three of us had completely fine guns, and one guy had rust forming all over the slide.

    *shrug*

    I'd call S&W to gripe about it. Otherwise, if you clean it off, it does not seem to mar the finish (unless you let it go for too long, of course). Of course, you now know that your finish is not rust-resistant, so you probably want to address it pretty quickly, even if S&W will not (which, IMO, they should).


    It's a good gun, it just has some niggling issues. This is definately one of them.

    Mike
     
  10. Coronach

    Coronach Moderator Emeritus

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    Also, FWIW, my M&P has gotten soaked several times, and I've been very remiss about wiping it down in a timely manner. Zero rust, ever. I don't think I've ever gotten my M&Pc wet, but I never wipe it down after IWB carry, also no rust. Dunno why.

    Mike
     
  11. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Magic Man,

    Of course S&W will replace the rusting slide and magazine, but a couple of questions so we have some understanding of the conditions they go through.

    How are you carrying the pistol and spare magazine? What is the material of the carrier? Are you inside mostly or outside?

    How often do you get to wipe the gun down? Do you use anything other than a dry cloth when you wipe it down?
     
  12. Manco

    Manco Member

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    This is the same conclusion I came to when discussing it on an M&P-specific forum. Most are highly rust-resistant and require minimal care (even when carried), but some rust very easily (and a few like crazy). It probably has something to do with the Melonite treatment that is used to wear-harden the surface of the slide as well as deposit the matte black finish on top. The black finish is cosmetic only, and is not part of the hardened metal underneath, which is normally inherently rust-resistant, being stainless steel. The potential issue here is that when Melonite is used on stainless, if certain things are done improperly or imprecisely, then the natural corrosion resistance of stainless could actually be ruined. :uhoh: Normally this shouldn't happen, but it did frequently early on, and still happens sometimes today. S&W has improved the QC regarding this issue, but they can't seem to find a vendor that can do the process right every time.

    By the way, the Melonite process is the same as the Tenifer process used on Glocks--they're just different trademarks for ferritic nitrocarburizing. Each is actually a family of processes, which are always different between stainless and non-stainless steels. Non-stainless steels are subjected to an additional treatment step that provides strong corrosion resistance--this is what Glocks receive (their black finish is separate and cosmetic). It doesn't work on stainless, and shouldn't be necessary anyway, but like I said earlier, improper treatment in the other steps can make stainless rust easily. By the way, I'm not saying that stainless steels--especially strong ones like what S&W uses--cannot rust, but they should be resistant to the point that occasional oiling should prevent rust entirely. Glocks seem to be more resistant to rusting than stainless, but I've seen it happen too, especially when they're carried concealed by those who have very salty and/or acidic sweat. Even if the slide doesn't rust, there are parts that are more prone to rusting that one has to worry about anyway (e.g. slide lock, various internal parts, steel sights if so equipped). Improper Tenifer treatment also happens on the final step, albeit more rarely. The following may be one such example, or it's possibly the result of frequent contact with sweat or other moisture:

    http://gunlovers.19.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?p=15805#15805

    Back to the main topic, if you sweat on your gun at all and don't take care of it every so often with regard to corrosion prevention, then eventually rust is what you'll get. The M&P in question also has rust on its rear sight (virtually all steel sights need preventative maintenance on every gun that has them), take-down lever, forward roll pin, and probably its slide stop, so it's not just a slide surface treatment issue we're dealing with here. To the OP, you should definitely send your gun back in for refinishing or slide replacement, especially if it's an older M&P, as you'll likely get a better-finished slide that should be as rust-resistant as possible, but in any case, you'll want to exercise some preventative maintenance, maybe once a week or so.

    As for what to use, I'd avoid Eezox personally, just because it seems kind of toxic. :eek: That's too bad because it is extremely effective and proven as a corrosion inhibitor. CorrosionX should get the job done, though, and appears to be relatively non-toxic. I use WeaponShield Grease (because I happen to use it as a lube) which is also non-toxic and seems to work just as well as Eezox. Calcium sulfonate-based greases in particular form a tenacious film that protects against rust, and one such example would be the Lubriplate SynXtreme FG series, which is H1 food-grade (i.e. shouldn't eat it straight, but limited incidental contact with food is allowed in processing machinery), so it's non-toxic. Also, in another related thread, carnauba wax and Blue Wonder Armadillo were brought up as potentially longer-lasting solutions for some parts.
     
  13. Jbmoney21

    Jbmoney21 Member

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    My M&P 40c started to have rust around the serations on the back of the slide. You could clean it off, but it always came back. Looks like Smith needs to step in and fix the problem
     
  14. ugaarguy

    ugaarguy Moderator Staff Member

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    Reaper, CLP is a great lubricant, a pretty good cleaner, and just a decent anti-corrosion protective coating. Hence, recommendations for products like Eezox and CorrosionX, which aren't great lubricants, but are great anti-corrosion protective coatings.

    Like I said, I've seen Glocks rust too; and as others have noted, some folks just have saltier / more corrosive perspiration than others. There are plenty of old blued Colt and S&W revolvers out there that have tons of holster wear (meaning they were carried extensively), but no rust, nor any pitting from rust that was cleaned off. That old bluing on carbon steel guns was far less corrosion resistant than even an M&P with a bad job done on the Melonite process. Why do y'all think those old wheel guns have survived, and remained in such good condition? Maybe because those old salts took care of them.

    The military can also get away with the just decent corrosion protection of CLP because are their weapons are hard coat phosphated or hard anodized, not carried IWB, and rarely carried in anything but synthetic holsters (investigative agents and highly specialized personnel being the exceptions to IWB carry).
     
  15. FLAvalanche

    FLAvalanche Member

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    Or C: Don't take care of their weapons.

    I'm so sick of hearing people complain about rust. Gun rust because they aren't being taken care of plain and simple.

    Metal rusts. Always has, always will. 20 years ago we didn't have these whiz-bang coatings and guns didn't rust. Why? Because people took care of their guns.

    And don't give me the sweat excuse. I live in Southwest Florida and sweat like a stuck pig and none of my guns have a single speck of rust.

    It's a simple concept. If you know you sweat a lot you find something that will protect your gun. If it's still rusting you aren't doing a good enough job taking care of it.
     
  16. legion3

    legion3 Member

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    I have carried many guns in hot humid Central Florida for years.

    Never seen a Glock rust. Nor a modern all metal HK, or Walther or Beretta.

    Never seen a Smith 3rd gen rust.

    Never seen a Sigma rust.

    The early XD's and HS 2000's rusted. I saw rust on a older Jehrico 941. And I have seen several 1911's rust (and many more that haven't).

    No excuse for the M&P to rust even in batches or every 4th or 5th one.
     
  17. Boris bush

    Boris bush member

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    21 years ago my brother got a G17. It has never seen a drop of oil and it has yet to rust. It has been submerged, sweat on, rained on for days on end on hunt trips... I have owned several Glocks and have never put a drop of protective oil on any of them. Glock gets the finish right on all their guns and cost less. If S&W can get it right on 4 and a 5th rusts like disc brakes that have set for a year then something is wrong. Pretty easy to understand.

    20 years ago (even S&W) made better guns and or used better (stainless) steels. A good carbon steel with a good park finish will soak up oil and protect better than the stainless treated M&P steel. I had a 1911 with a good park finish that would go a couple weeks of harsh use before it rusted if I kept a good oil on it. There is no reason the M&P should rust at all......
     
  18. Kingofthehill

    Kingofthehill Member

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    hahahaha.... i have an EXTREMELY hard time believing that it has Never, EVER... in a single day seen any sort of lube. Silicone cloth?.... and you are 100% sure of this?

    This is a HUGE claim.... WAY bigger than the typical "My XXXX has never jammed... even after 15,000 rds...."

    I like pie too... but this seems very hard to believe.
     
  19. Boris bush

    Boris bush member

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    I have owned and shot glocks since the mid 90s. I have yet to lube a single one.

    My reason is they are working guns and when you tromp across a wheat field or go through the woods oil loves to pickup chaff from crops or weeds. It attracts lint and all kinds of stuff. Glocks greatest design flaw is oil loves to make its way into the striker channel and gather carbon and brass shavings. I have seen more Glocks fail from too much lube or tiny amounts of lube that buildup over time where it is not supposed to. I have even seen people put oil in the "oil hole" so it can lube the stiker for proper function...

    You do not need to believe it. I know my Glocks run just fine dry. Infact from what I have seen they run better longer than an equal model and caliber that has been lubed its whole life. I hepled a few friends 'fix' "broken" glocks after removing the striker for them and degreasing and de gunking them for them.

    I am more than sure of it. Its a Glock. Not a Kimber that is expected to fail if you look at it wrong. I do lube the slide rails on my XD9. ITs a tighter gun and the rails are huge. They need it. Glocks on the other hand, do not. Plenty of people run them dry. Only 'lube' my Glock gets is the CLP I use to clean the rails every 1,000 rounds after I wipe all off I can. I guess enough is left over to last 1000 rounds without gathering any excess carbon and brass shavings.....

    Just my experience, sorry if it does not jive with what you think.
     
  20. legion3

    legion3 Member

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    I do wipe my guns down with a silicone cloth now and then but not every day, not once a week, not even once a month.

    None of my Glocks have ever had rust. Even my first generation G17 and 17L that have little of the original black coating left, lots of holster wear and some spots are pure silver on these guns...no rust.

    I like Glocks but I am not touting them as rust proof, just that I have never seen it. I am also not bashing the M&P just saying that in this day and age there is no excuse for S&W to put out any gun that rusts with the apparent ease that some M&P's do.
     
  21. Zerodefect

    Zerodefect Member

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    Switch to a kydex holster like Raven Concealment for OWB carry or a Kydex/Horse hide mix like the Crossbreed supertuck for IWB.

    Those materials seem a bit less wet, and easier on finishes that way. I keep a patch around that is soaked in 15w40/ATF/STP mix and wipe my CCW down every once in a while and dry it off with a silicone rag.

    Seems to work on everything short of rusty old 1911's. Or just get a Glock.
     
  22. Manco

    Manco Member

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    Not so--the extremely rust-resistant steels used in many kitchen utensils and superstructures exposed to weather, for example, aren't strong enough for use in firearms. Basically, some corrosion resistance must be traded for strength. Like I said in my earlier post, however, what corrosion resistance there is could also be compromised by the Melonite process if it's not done just right.

    If it's good at holding water, then it's probably good at holding corrosion inhibiting compounds, as well. Just saying.

    Let's just say that the process is far more sensitive (hence the QC issues) and limited in the case of stainless steel. It's not necessarily less effective in every way, however, as the case-hardened Melonite layer on the M&P is even harder than the one on the Glock. Just nitpicking, I guess.

    It's got to be the combination of stainless and Melonite that's causing such anguish with the M&P. When it works, it works great, but when it doesn't the gun rusts very easily, much like plain carbon steel.

    They did until they switched to the two options available today, which are plain stainless steel with no Melonite and regular chrome-moly (AKA chromoly) steel with Melonite (just like a Glock). Although my M&P seems to have been properly Melonite-treated and I'm very happy with it, S&W ought to seriously consider switching to chromoly or offering that plus plain stainless as an option, as with the XD. M&P slides are already through-hardened anyway, and that should be good enough for the stainless steel to be left plain.

    There are reasons for the problems, but since there are also easy solutions, you're right that there is no excuse.

    He must have an exceptional example because every Glock I've seen that has been similarly tortured has rusted at least a little--particularly internal parts that aren't Tenifer-treated, although the barrel and slide will eventually succumb to sweat or any salt water solution. Glocks are great with regard to corrosion resistance, but they're hardly impervious.

    Every gun design ever made has its own issues, including the Glock. The M&P's rusting issue can be fixed, but S&W stubbornly insists on Melonited stainless steel for some reason. The QC has improved over time, so maybe they think they'll get it right yet, but some other manufacturers smartly chose the easy solutions (while others still don't bother to make their guns rust-resistant at all, depending entirely on preventative maintenance).

    See my first post in this thread above. The Melonite process can sometimes ruin stainless steel. It's not that they're using inferior raw materials at all.

    It wouldn't rust regardless of whether it was properly finished if people took care of it like people used to take care of all guns. I can't even be 100% sure whether my M&P is properly finished because the grease I treat it with makes it more resistant to salt water than an untreated Glock anyway.

    Why does every complaint thread regarding any pistol design have to turn into a comparison with Glocks? :rolleyes: Anyway, for what it's worth, M&P's don't need much if any lube, either. I've run mine dry for hundreds of rounds in a test, without failure, and I used to leave just a thin film of Weapon Shield CLP on the slide rail guides normally. Nowadays I put a similarly thin film of grease there and where the barrel meets the slide just to make extra sure, sort of like how Glock uses a copper-based anti-seize compound to ensure that their guns will fire right out of the box no matter how long they've been sitting around and before they've been broken in.

    The hardened, rust-resistant layer of Tenifer-treated steel is below the black finish, and is what you see when the black is completely gone. If you file or sandpaper that layer off, then the chromoly steel underneath will rust very easily.

    And by the way, this is where the ruined stainless steel of improperly-treated M&P slides is located, and if you file or sandpaper this layer off, then the stainless steel underneath will resist rust like it should have been doing all along. :)

    There's no denying that Glocks are inherently very robust in this way, but based on tests I've seen on Glocks and my own tests on old tools, no naked Glock slide is going to resist concentrated salt water like my properly cared for M&P slide can. It's not the M&P, but what I use to protect it from corrosion. I'd do the same with any gun I own, including Glocks. I guess I'm "old school" that way.

    I agree, they need to make some big but easy decisions to rid their customers and themselves of this nagging issue once and for all. Every other issue has been dealt with in short order, and just looking at the parts and internal design, the M&P is a seriously stout pistol these days. I don't know why they're so obstinate with regard to solving this particular issue. :confused:
     
  23. Magic_Man

    Magic_Man Member

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    I've only had the thing for a few months.
     
  24. Magic_Man

    Magic_Man Member

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    Yep, that's it. I don't take care of it at all. None of my other weapons have rusted. So only people 20 years ago took care of their guns? lol
     
  25. Rokman

    Rokman Member

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    No problems with my M&P40c. Sorry to hear about yours.
     
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