OK. My bad. If it is stainless, it's a poor grade of such.
Not so--the extremely rust-resistant steels used in many kitchen utensils and superstructures exposed to weather, for example, aren't strong enough for use in firearms. Basically, some corrosion resistance must be traded for strength. Like I said in my earlier post, however, what corrosion resistance there is could also be compromised by the Melonite process if it's not done just right.
Either that, or the factory finish holds moisture. Remedies are still the same.
If it's good at holding water, then it's probably good at holding corrosion inhibiting compounds, as well. Just saying.
Tenifer/Melonite is far less effective on stainless steel than it is on carbon steel.
Let's just say that the process is far more sensitive (hence the QC issues) and limited in the case of stainless steel. It's not necessarily less effective in every way, however, as the case-hardened Melonite layer on the M&P is even harder than the one on the Glock. Just nitpicking, I guess.
I have carried many guns in hot humid Central Florida for years.
Never seen a Glock rust. Nor a modern all metal HK, or Walther or Beretta.
Never seen a Smith 3rd gen rust.
Never seen a Sigma rust.
It's got to be the combination of stainless and Melonite that's causing such anguish with the M&P. When it works, it works great, but when it doesn't the gun rusts very easily, much like plain carbon steel.
The early XD's and HS 2000's rusted.
They did until they switched to the two options available today, which are plain stainless steel with no Melonite and regular chrome-moly (AKA chromoly) steel with Melonite (just like a Glock). Although my M&P seems to have been properly Melonite-treated and I'm very happy with it, S&W ought to seriously consider switching to chromoly or offering that plus plain stainless as an option, as with the XD. M&P slides are already through-hardened anyway, and that should be good enough for the stainless steel to be left plain.
No excuse for the M&P to rust even in batches or every 4th or 5th one.
There are reasons for the problems, but since there are also easy solutions, you're right that there is no excuse.
21 years ago my brother got a G17. It has never seen a drop of oil and it has yet to rust. It has been submerged, sweat on, rained on for days on end on hunt trips...
He must have an exceptional example because every Glock I've seen that has been similarly tortured has rusted at least a little--particularly internal parts that aren't Tenifer-treated, although the barrel and slide will eventually succumb to sweat or any salt water solution. Glocks are great with regard to corrosion resistance, but they're hardly impervious.
I have owned several Glocks and have never put a drop of protective oil on any of them. Glock gets the finish right on all their guns and cost less. If S&W can get it right on 4 and a 5th rusts like disc brakes that have set for a year then something is wrong. Pretty easy to understand.
Every gun design ever made has its own issues, including the Glock. The M&P's rusting issue can be fixed, but S&W stubbornly insists on Melonited stainless steel for some reason. The QC has improved over time, so maybe they think they'll get it right yet, but some other manufacturers smartly chose the easy solutions (while others still don't bother to make their guns rust-resistant at all, depending entirely on preventative maintenance).
20 years ago (even S&W) made better guns and or used better (stainless) steels.
See my first post in this thread above. The Melonite process can sometimes ruin stainless steel. It's not that they're using inferior raw materials at all.
A good carbon steel with a good park finish will soak up oil and protect better than the stainless treated M&P steel. I had a 1911 with a good park finish that would go a couple weeks of harsh use before it rusted if I kept a good oil on it. There is no reason the M&P should rust at all......
It wouldn't rust regardless of whether it was properly finished if people took care of it like people used to take care of all guns. I can't even be 100% sure whether my M&P is properly finished because the grease I treat it with makes it more resistant to salt water than an untreated Glock anyway.
You do not need to believe it. I know my Glocks run just fine dry. Infact from what I have seen they run better longer than an equal model and caliber that has been lubed its whole life. I hepled a few friends 'fix' "broken" glocks after removing the striker for them and degreasing and de gunking them for them.
I am more than sure of it. Its a Glock. Not a Kimber that is expected to fail if you look at it wrong. I do lube the slide rails on my XD9. ITs a tighter gun and the rails are huge. They need it. Glocks on the other hand, do not. Plenty of people run them dry. Only 'lube' my Glock gets is the CLP I use to clean the rails every 1,000 rounds after I wipe all off I can. I guess enough is left over to last 1000 rounds without gathering any excess carbon and brass shavings.....
Why does every complaint thread regarding any pistol design have to turn into a comparison with Glocks?
Anyway, for what it's worth, M&P's don't need much if any lube, either. I've run mine dry for hundreds of rounds in a test, without failure, and I used to leave just a thin film of Weapon Shield CLP on the slide rail guides normally. Nowadays I put a similarly thin film of grease there and where the barrel meets the slide just to make extra sure, sort of like how Glock uses a copper-based anti-seize compound to ensure that their guns will fire right out of the box no matter how long they've been sitting around and before they've been broken in.
None of my Glocks have ever had rust. Even my first generation G17 and 17L that have little of the original black coating left, lots of holster wear and some spots are pure silver on these guns...no rust.
The hardened, rust-resistant layer of Tenifer-treated steel is below the black finish, and is what you see when the black is completely gone. If you file or sandpaper that layer off, then the chromoly steel underneath will rust very easily.
And by the way, this is where the ruined stainless steel of improperly-treated M&P slides is located, and if you file or sandpaper this layer off, then the stainless steel underneath will resist rust like it should have been doing all along.
I like Glocks but I am not touting them as rust proof, just that I have never seen it.
There's no denying that Glocks are inherently very robust in this way, but based on tests I've seen on Glocks and my own tests on old tools, no naked Glock slide is going to resist concentrated salt water like my properly cared for M&P slide can. It's not the M&P, but what I use to protect it from corrosion. I'd do the same with any gun I own, including Glocks. I guess I'm "old school" that way.
I am also not bashing the M&P just saying that in this day and age there is no excuse for S&W to put out any gun that rusts with the apparent ease that some M&P's do.
I agree, they need to make some big but easy decisions to rid their customers and themselves of this nagging issue once and for all. Every other issue has been dealt with in short order, and just looking at the parts and internal design, the M&P is a seriously stout pistol these days. I don't know why they're so obstinate with regard to solving this particular issue.