The small bore defensive shotgun

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Pfletch83

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The build I have in mind is for a .410 but the same could be done with a 28 gauge (if the owner wanted to load buckshot instead of being stuck with bird shot as the only choice).

The .410 shotgun is my pick because of weight and expected preformance in use,also defensive loads are readily offered (though costly,which is why reloading is a good option worth exploring with this cartridge).

With a cut down barrel (but still well within legal barrel length requirements) it should prove to be a good all around firearm with a cyliderbore choke slugs could be used worry free.

Any thoughts or Ideas?
 
If you haven't bought the gun yet, you'll generally find that 20 ga. and 12 ga. guns are just as cheap or cheaper than their .410 ga. counterparts. (Lets leave 28 ga. out of the picture. Many shooters have never even SEEN one.)

Do you have a physical limitation that requires the lightest possible long arm? Defensive performance is going to be pretty marginal, even with the low-count buckshot loads available in that caliber.

(Let's get this one out of the way: Birdshot is for birds. No.4 Buck or bigger if you want your hits to do what they need to do.)

What "all around" uses are you envisioning where the .410 is close to as effective as a 20 or 12 ga? Most wingshooters consider a .410 to be a challenging gun to master, so you'll need to be quite proficient with it to be successful at hunting.
 
Yes my right shoulder and neck were messed up in an ATV wreck back in '05.

I was also thinking about the fact that smaller statured adults and teens could use a firearm as described for the same reason,more accurate and less recoil than the heavier hitting gauges.

With the distances encountered in a home defense situation (inside the typical home or apartment) are too close for the heavier payloads to spreadout much if at all in some cases.

Also I aready have the .410 in hand (bought brand new from the local shop),though the barrel modification hasn't been done yet (still looking for a good smith to take a look at it and give me a price estimate on the required work.)
 
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With the distances encountered in a home defense situation (inside the typical home or apartment) are too close for the heavier payloads to spreadout much if at all in some cases.
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There are some good resources on line where folks have actually tested specific buckshot loads at home defense ranges and show you the results. Some shells (the "Flite Control" loads for example) do indeed stay very tight. Some (like the LE and Military buckshot loads) open up easily twice as fast.

Of course, a huge spread of shot just means you miss with even more pellets than you hit with, generally speaking. Accuracy is just as important with a shotgun as with any other defensive weapon.

Any weapon you'd use to defend yourself requires one thing above all: Practice, practice, practice! Having said that, if your body now says you can't put hundreds of shells through anything larger than a .410, then that's what you'll have to rely on.

A .410 that you've intensely trained with is more formidable than a 20 ga. you shoot rarely.
 
My mother uses a mossberg 500 in 20 gauge that I put a pistol grip/car stock on it for her due to limited mobility from an artificial shoulder due to arthritis. She has no problems with the recoil of reduced recoil slugs.
 
last time i checked the price of .410 ammo it was quite ridiculous......but as Sam said buy what you are going to shoot and pecome proficient with.
 
IMHO a defensive weapon is used only when fighting for your life, or that of a loved one. The minimum I would even consider would be 20 ga. with lots of practice. Could a .410 slug put down an assailant? Yes, but even a 20 ga is several times more powerful, ammo is cheaper, easier to find, and the gun would have better resale value. 28 ga is for skeet/quail/woodcock-not HD.
 
With a cut down barrel (but still well within legal barrel length requirements) it should prove to be a good all around firearm with a cyliderbore choke slugs could be used worry free.

Any thoughts or Ideas?
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I have just such a shotgun. I have it more of "just because" reasons than as an actual defense piece I rely upon. My gun is a saiga .410. It sports a 19" barrel. With a 15 round mag it is nothing to sneaze at. It would surely be a better choice for someone who is small in stature or for other reasons finds a 12 gauge difficult to wield. Someone who was well versed in its use would be well armed with it.

That said I think a carbine (say an AR-15) has a number of advantages over it and is generally speaking a better defensive weapon. If one can wield a .410 then an AR is within their abilities.

If I knew I'd be in a gun fight I'd opt for my AR over my Saiga .410 which is IMHO a better than average fighting .410 shotgun.
 
I would agree that a carbine might be a more effective defensive weapon, though my personal preference would be a pistol-caliber carbine in your preference of auto-pistol caliber (9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP, etc.) for a semi-auto or revolver caliber (.38 Special, .357 Mag, .44 Special, .44 Mag) for a lever gun rather than a .223.

That said, a .410 shotgun is certainly nothing to sneeze at for close-range work. Rifled slugs from a .410 are adequate for home defense and there are a few 3" loads with 5 buckshot that are quite nasty. The problem, as you point out, is that the guns and their ammo are not cheap, but given your health issues those are acceptable compromises.

If, like me Saiga is too "tacticool" for your taste in a shotgun, then there are a couple of Mossberg pumps available in .410 (though I'd avoid the Home Defense model with a spreader choke as too limiting and of dubious effect). The Cruiser model with a factory pistol grip in .410 is an obvious choice and their is nothing to prevent you from adding a shoulder stock back on, factory or folding. A youth model might also work for you and would be cheaper--a slip on recoil pad would extend the length of pull if necessary.

You could also go old school with a double barrel. For example, Stoeger's Coach Gun comes in .410 and is short and handy. While a double may not be "tacticool," every bad guy has seen enough cowboy movies to get a bit nervous when looking down a double barrel--even those .410 muzzles seem big under those circumstances.
 
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I just bought a .410 for home defense.
I think there is a lot to recommend it.
First, you are not limited to bird shot.
Due to the popularity of the Taurus Judge, there is a wide range in buckshot ammo.
The pellets are traveling at the same velocity as a 12 ga. pellet, they are the same size, there is simply fewer pellets.
I'm always amazed that forum fans will recommend a .38 for home defense but not a .410. I guess they think it's better to defend yourself with one .38 sized pellet than five of the same size in the .410.
Also, the reduced recoil will encourage other family members to use it.
And the reduced recoil will make it easier to get back on target if a follow up shot is needed.
Also, god forbid, you were facing a jury for a defense shooting, it would be difficult for the DA to paint you as a "crazed killer laying in wait" if you used a .410.
I expect to hear the 12 ga. fans explaining how 9 pellets will be devastating, but 5 pellets of the same size will just bounce off.
I think you made a fine choice.
I have a nice shotgun in 12 ga. I don't have a problem shooting it, but I thought the .410 was a better choice.
Stoeger's Coach Gun comes in .410 and is short and handy.
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I thought it was heavy for a H/D gun, considering it's two shots, but a possibility too!
I went with the Mossberg pump, 18 1/2" barrel, P/G.

Also, wandering afield, the Bond Arms Snakeslayer IV is a handgun in .410 worth looking at. Still, two shots, but very well made.
My gun is a saiga .410. It sports a 19" barrel. With a 15 round mag it is nothing to sneaze at.
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Indeed, I considered that too.
Some people felt that shells under tension in a magazine eventually flatten out and won't feed properly. Did you ever find that?

With a cut down barrel
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In the Mossberg the barrels are easy to change. (one screw). Rather than cut down a barrel, see if you can find a used short barrel and be able to change them. Best of both worlds.
 
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I used to have one of those Mossberg Home defence 410 ga pump guns. ( The one with the "can" on the end to make it look like a 12 ga from the hurting end.) Nice little gun and it handled very well. Still had some kick when you lit it off from the hip though. Sorry I sold it actually.

FWIW, 410 1/2 buck/slug load moving at 1300 fps puts the ME up there with TWO rounds from a .357. That's pretty respectable IMHO.

That said, I won't disagree that a 20 ga is cheaper to feed.
 
I pondered this last year. Why is the .410 judge considered for accepted for HD as a handgun but the same .410 caliber is considered not effective in a long gun? .410 slugs or defensive loads should be fine at inside the house distances, but use your best judgement based on your conditions.

But you can also find 9mm, 40cal and 45cal carbines that could fit your bill also.
 
Sam1911 said:
If you haven't bought the gun yet, you'll generally find that 20 ga. and 12 ga. guns are just as cheap or cheaper than their .410 ga. counterparts. (Lets leave 28 ga. out of the picture. Many shooters have never even SEEN one.)
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Ammunition price/availibility become factors as well. Taurus and their wildly popular Judge line are helping in that, but it'll still add to the total cost of ownership and possible fusteration in finding defensive rounds.

Oh, and Box + Judge = Truth :)
 
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Also the 410 ammo is lighter meaning more shells can be carried on a buttstock ammo carrier than with a 12 or 20 (5 or so for the larger gauges vs 8-9 for the .410 buttstock carrier) and if the shorter 2-1/2 inch loads are used more can be loaded into the pump (5+1) without any modifications.
 
To Panzercat:

That's also why I'm going to reload for the .410 (also just for something else to do with my time when the snow is flying).

And the .410 I'm going to be using is not a short barreled revolver (like the judge) the barrel length is going to be between 18.5-19 inches which should add to the velocity of the buckshot loads (I'm also going to experiment with different slug loadings)
 
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I was also thinking about the fact that smaller statured adults and teens could use a firearm as described for the same reason,more accurate and less recoil than the heavier hitting gauges.
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A 12 gauge can always be loaded down to 28 or even 410 levels, but it is very hard to load a 410 or 28 up to 12 gauge levels.

A light load in a heavy 12 gauge will mitigate most of the recoil. I reload a 3/4oz 12 gauge target load - it even works a Beretta gas gun. If I was to change the pellets out to a larger size, I would have more pellets than a 410 AND a light load with low recoil
 
But for the distances encountered would the heavier payload really be worth it?

The three inch buck shot loads are launching the pellets (while few) at the same velocity as a 12 or 20,and is more user friendly than a 12 or 20.
 
But for the distances encountered would the heavier payload really be worth it?
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Well that's the "age-old" question, isn't it? No one can say whether this gun or that gun or any gun (or this level of skill or that level of skill) will be "enough" when the need arises.

There's a thread on that very question running right now.

In the end it still appears that you should avail yourself of the very MOST effective gun that you CAN shoot most effectively and DO practice with religiously. If that's a .410, then so be it.
 
Very true.

I'll be posting pics of the finished product and the ammo tests when I get the chance to (Which is at the top of my things to do list).
 
But for the distances encountered would the heavier payload really be worth it?

The three inch buck shot loads are launching the pellets (while few) at the same velocity as a 12 or 20,and is more user friendly than a 12 or 20.
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3/4 oz is what the normal 28 gauge load is and 1/16 oz more than your 3" 410, but with much better patterning - in that heavier gun, it will be easier for most to shoot
 
Reloading always helps in price and availibity :)

The flattening is a bit odd in those box of truth tests and i'd worry about it as a defensive buckshot round. Of course, you can always fire .45s out of it, so /shrug. Considered rifling vs smooth bore in the equasion yet?
 
True that would be some thump to the shoulder.

Then again that shows what the little .410 is capable of when used in a hot loading.
 
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