Kind of Blued
Member
If you're out-gunned with 16 rounds of 9mm, you need a rifle... one that fires a rifle round.
The St Louis City Police redo the 9mm v. 40 debate.
- Thread starter Jeff White
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There is no practical difference between 9mm, 40S&W and 45 that anybody can consistently demonstrate in real life situations. All we have is a bunch of theories and individual incidents that convince users that they know of the magic bullet.
Still, I think it's great that PDs keep changing cartridges. It keeps the firearms producers in business and provides a great source of "trickle down" pistols for the rest of us.
Just look at the arguments to see how totally confused the thinking is:
1. The 9mm is underpowered but it has an over-penetration problem.
2. The 9mm won't stop anything, including mice.
3. The 9mm is used by nearly every western military in the World, it must be great.
4. The 40S&W is weak (40 Short & Weak).
5. Oops, sorry, the FBI thinks the 40 S&W is the ideal round.
6. The 45 rules, even though it has less muzzle energy than the 40&W.
7. Caliber matters because the bigger bullet leaves a bigger hole. The 40 is .044 inches bigger diameter than the 9mm, the 45 is .050 inches bigger than the 40 - Whoopee! Especially since something like 9 out of 10 bullets fired in anger do not hit the target at all.
8. If either the 40 or 45 is a problem for a "small handed ??" officer we can always give them a 9mm.
ETC, etc, ad nauseam.
First thing PDs need is to improve firearms training.
Second thing they need to do is improve strategies.
Third thing they need to do is improve tactics.
After that, if the still have a problem, they can look at the firearms.
Still, I think it's great that PDs keep changing cartridges. It keeps the firearms producers in business and provides a great source of "trickle down" pistols for the rest of us.
Just look at the arguments to see how totally confused the thinking is:
1. The 9mm is underpowered but it has an over-penetration problem.
2. The 9mm won't stop anything, including mice.
3. The 9mm is used by nearly every western military in the World, it must be great.
4. The 40S&W is weak (40 Short & Weak).
5. Oops, sorry, the FBI thinks the 40 S&W is the ideal round.
6. The 45 rules, even though it has less muzzle energy than the 40&W.
7. Caliber matters because the bigger bullet leaves a bigger hole. The 40 is .044 inches bigger diameter than the 9mm, the 45 is .050 inches bigger than the 40 - Whoopee! Especially since something like 9 out of 10 bullets fired in anger do not hit the target at all.
8. If either the 40 or 45 is a problem for a "small handed ??" officer we can always give them a 9mm.
ETC, etc, ad nauseam.
First thing PDs need is to improve firearms training.
Second thing they need to do is improve strategies.
Third thing they need to do is improve tactics.
After that, if the still have a problem, they can look at the firearms.
Mr_Rogers,
Have you been counseled about injecting good sense, knowledge and logic into a caliber discussion on a gun forum lately?
Thanks for your post sir.
Everyone else fell free to go back to arguing for your favorite caliber. Those of us who are unenlightened about which caliber is better will go ahead and believe that any caliber .38 special or above is adequate for defensive use and it's software, not hardware that wins fights.
I now return you to the regularly scheduled caliber war...
Jeff
Have you been counseled about injecting good sense, knowledge and logic into a caliber discussion on a gun forum lately?
Thanks for your post sir.Everyone else fell free to go back to arguing for your favorite caliber. Those of us who are unenlightened about which caliber is better will go ahead and believe that any caliber .38 special or above is adequate for defensive use and it's software, not hardware that wins fights.
I now return you to the regularly scheduled caliber war...
Jeff
Technosavant
Member
Yet another instance where they look to replace the tools instead of simply trying to gain proficiency with what they have. I wonder how much of that "we're outgunned" would go away if every officer was forced to put 200-300 rounds through their service weapon every week at the range.
last time I checked, the 9mm, .40, and .45acp all carry roughly the same amount of energy. What really separates how hard they hit is their size and build.
9x19 FMJ - 326-356 ft-pounds
9x19 JHP - about 430 ft-pounds
40SW JHP - 400-450 ft-pounds
45ACP JHP - 370-415 ft-pounds
sounds like to me that the only thing that ST. Louis needs to do is stop loading FMJs and move on to the hollow-points, because they seemingly described FMJ 9mm vs. the JFP/JHP .40
9x19 FMJ - 326-356 ft-pounds
9x19 JHP - about 430 ft-pounds
40SW JHP - 400-450 ft-pounds
45ACP JHP - 370-415 ft-pounds
sounds like to me that the only thing that ST. Louis needs to do is stop loading FMJs and move on to the hollow-points, because they seemingly described FMJ 9mm vs. the JFP/JHP .40
jackdanson
Member
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- Feb 14, 2008
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- 859
Yeah, I can't believe they switched to a pistol calibre carbine. Easy to train on I guess and longer range than a shotty. Still I think the ideal combination would be a shotty AND an AR in the patrol car. Most police don't need an AR, but if someone had body armor or they need the range it'd be nice to have. 9mm carbine? Can't penetrate armor.. shorter range.. I would have clung to my shotgun, nothing clears out a car full of BG's like 5 rounds of 00 buckshot.
.40 vs. 9mm? Ack, shutup already. Both have slight positives and negatives over eachother.
PavePusher
Member
All police should carry .454 Casulls. That'll shut everyone up...
Blackbeard
Member
Are they having a big problem with suspects being shot with 9mm and surviving long enough to injure someone else? If not, then why even have this debate? 9mm is good enough for the job it is supposed to do.
doc2rn
Member
Shouldn't have cried wolf so much and they still would have had the PMC dognut cutters.
I'm inclined to think that they'd be better off adding some real rifles to their patrol cars if they really feel that outgunned.
I hate to keep bringing this up, but a 30-30 is a cheap and effective solution to the patrol rifle problem.
A Saiga .308 would probably do too.
IMO, there are few things that are more conforting than knowing that you have a good rifle close at hand.
BTW - if we decide to go with Mr. Rogers suggestion, I'll be bringing my rifle and I'd like to be teamed with the guy who suggested the M1A earlier.
I hate to keep bringing this up, but a 30-30 is a cheap and effective solution to the patrol rifle problem.
A Saiga .308 would probably do too.
IMO, there are few things that are more conforting than knowing that you have a good rifle close at hand.
BTW - if we decide to go with Mr. Rogers suggestion, I'll be bringing my rifle and I'd like to be teamed with the guy who suggested the M1A earlier.
Geronimo45
Member
Why pistol-caliber carbines? Or are they SMGs?
DWARREN123
Member
I love the 40 S&W but it is no where near a 12ga shotgun!
jerkface11
Member
They won't be happy till they go to a full auto 10mm. I suggest that they contact Glock about constructing one.
Let me tell you about the tardation of local news reporters. I had a "news reporter" come to my high school to do an interview about my high school splitting up it's magnet academy and comprehensive program. She came in and asked for 6 people, 3 for the move and 3 against the move. Out of a class of 30, 1 person was against the move. So she decided on a 2 person interview with one for and one against. In the end she said and I quote "And there lies a heated debate between the student body against this controversial proposal." Obviously it's better news when you can make it like it's a "big issue". I bet all the police are for the move to .40 and the reporter is just pulling things out his/her behind to make it like it's a BIG tradeoff!
Thanks for the kind comments Gentlemen.
Probably the biggest advantage in the change to the 40 is that it will provide enhanced firearms training during the conversion.
Because of contacts I have made over the years, I have occasional access to a number of police ranges and the opportunity to watch training and discuss issues with the ROs. If I had to point to a factor that appeared to produce well trained officers, in terms of firearms competence, it would be the officer - usually a Lieutenant - directly responsible for the firearms training. If the Lieutenant is keen and competent the range has good instructors and ROs. If the instructors are good the officers are good. This may seem simplistic but it is quite marked.
Two adjacent organizations can vary to an extent you would not believe.
Probably the biggest advantage in the change to the 40 is that it will provide enhanced firearms training during the conversion.
Because of contacts I have made over the years, I have occasional access to a number of police ranges and the opportunity to watch training and discuss issues with the ROs. If I had to point to a factor that appeared to produce well trained officers, in terms of firearms competence, it would be the officer - usually a Lieutenant - directly responsible for the firearms training. If the Lieutenant is keen and competent the range has good instructors and ROs. If the instructors are good the officers are good. This may seem simplistic but it is quite marked.
Two adjacent organizations can vary to an extent you would not believe.
ylapirrynag
Member
A P90 and 12 gauge in every squad car's gun rack and let them use whatever pistol they want.
IndianaBoy
Member
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- Jan 3, 2005
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- 1,551
nine is fine
griz312000
Member
20 years in a squad car and never once felt under-gunned with a 1911 and a Remington 870 12.....call me old fashioned
Sans Authoritas
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- Jan 12, 2008
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Such an unlikely scenario would have to involve the unlikely scenario of actually hitting the BG to begin with. : )
-Sans Authoritas
"The .40-caliber is going to knock them down but not go through and hit somebody else."
That quoted officer must believe in elves. I do not understand that. People act like .40 caliber bullets are heat seeking missiles that never miss their target, while 9mm rounds have a natural tendency to fly all over the place like gnats, piercing any thing that might prevent it from hitting an innocent bystander. What police force trains it's LEOs to fire at somebody when there is a risk of hitting somebody behind the bg? If that is such a huge risk and fear, as is claimed when the quest for the magic bullet is undertaken, why do the police even carry guns. A 9mm or a .40 or a .45 will all do just about the same thing to a bg. And innocent bystanders are just as susceptible to one caliber as to another. But let them switch calibers so they don't have to walk around with caliber-envy, and they can get back to enforcing the law.
That quoted officer must believe in elves. I do not understand that. People act like .40 caliber bullets are heat seeking missiles that never miss their target, while 9mm rounds have a natural tendency to fly all over the place like gnats, piercing any thing that might prevent it from hitting an innocent bystander. What police force trains it's LEOs to fire at somebody when there is a risk of hitting somebody behind the bg? If that is such a huge risk and fear, as is claimed when the quest for the magic bullet is undertaken, why do the police even carry guns. A 9mm or a .40 or a .45 will all do just about the same thing to a bg. And innocent bystanders are just as susceptible to one caliber as to another. But let them switch calibers so they don't have to walk around with caliber-envy, and they can get back to enforcing the law.
DougDubya
Member
That's not magic - that's SCIENCE!
I'll say that, on average for police use there's no effective difference between 9mm and .40S&W.
There'll be more variation between different bullet weights and loadings.
I mean, look at the trade offs:
9mm gives you more rounds, 16 vs 12*
9mm has less recoil
.40S&W has a vaguely defined additional amount of stopping power.
.40S&W maybe has a reduced chance of over penetration.
9mm costs less for range time
Personally, I'd say 'let the officers try out a number of different weapons and keep the one they like/do the best with'. Heck, have them purchase it themselves if they don't want the 'base' model.
Personally, I carry my 9mm. I shoot more accurately with it than I do my .40 or .45. With the AWB gone I have 16 round magazines for it. It works. The magazine with it is tested regularly, and has never failed. Every failure of the gun to operate 100% reliability was traced to ammunition combined with environment(don't shoot blazer at -30), or a faulty mag(marked and set aside for possible repair, though at this point I'm likely to simply toss it, 100% new magazines are cheap again). The accuracy deal is the biggest deciding factor.
Yes, caliber and ammunition makes a difference, but once you get around .380 and up, a center of chest wound is generally disabling. A .32, for example, has a significant chance of not stopping the target with a COM hit compared to a 9mm, .40, or .45.
Still, like stated, I'd be looking into how many times the police have fired, hit their target COM, and still not disabled it. If that's significant, then I'd look into trading up. Even then, maybe a change in bullet selection, or switching to a +P load might solve the problem. If the main problem is that the police seem incapable of hitting COM, it's time for more or different training over new firearms. Unless it's found that the firearms are inherently inaccurate, of course.
*On this point you can lay the blame for criminals carrying larger calibers on the AWB. During which people tended to buy larger calibers due to the magazine size restriction. Many .40S&W pistols were sold in favor of the 9mm when the 'advantage' of a 15-16 round standard magazine was lost.
There'll be more variation between different bullet weights and loadings.
I mean, look at the trade offs:
9mm gives you more rounds, 16 vs 12*
9mm has less recoil
.40S&W has a vaguely defined additional amount of stopping power.
.40S&W maybe has a reduced chance of over penetration.
9mm costs less for range time
Personally, I'd say 'let the officers try out a number of different weapons and keep the one they like/do the best with'. Heck, have them purchase it themselves if they don't want the 'base' model.
Personally, I carry my 9mm. I shoot more accurately with it than I do my .40 or .45. With the AWB gone I have 16 round magazines for it. It works. The magazine with it is tested regularly, and has never failed. Every failure of the gun to operate 100% reliability was traced to ammunition combined with environment(don't shoot blazer at -30), or a faulty mag(marked and set aside for possible repair, though at this point I'm likely to simply toss it, 100% new magazines are cheap again). The accuracy deal is the biggest deciding factor.
Yes, caliber and ammunition makes a difference, but once you get around .380 and up, a center of chest wound is generally disabling. A .32, for example, has a significant chance of not stopping the target with a COM hit compared to a 9mm, .40, or .45.
Still, like stated, I'd be looking into how many times the police have fired, hit their target COM, and still not disabled it. If that's significant, then I'd look into trading up. Even then, maybe a change in bullet selection, or switching to a +P load might solve the problem. If the main problem is that the police seem incapable of hitting COM, it's time for more or different training over new firearms. Unless it's found that the firearms are inherently inaccurate, of course.
*On this point you can lay the blame for criminals carrying larger calibers on the AWB. During which people tended to buy larger calibers due to the magazine size restriction. Many .40S&W pistols were sold in favor of the 9mm when the 'advantage' of a 15-16 round standard magazine was lost.
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