Blackbeard
Member
By definition, anything more than "good enough" is "overkill".
The St Louis City Police redo the 9mm v. 40 debate.
- Thread starter Jeff White
- Start date
- Status
By definition, anything more than "good enough" is "overkill".
MICHAEL T
Member
Give them 357 S&W mag. 4" barrel and 6 shots 125grHP They will have the so called stopping power they want. The spray and pray chance of hitting by standers is reduced , As a officer with a rev. will make his shots count
Bet the hit ratio to shots fired would go up. NY city went down 10% when they went to Glocks
The police need more realistic training and practice Not bigger bullet .
Bet the hit ratio to shots fired would go up. NY city went down 10% when they went to Glocks
The police need more realistic training and practice Not bigger bullet .
westpoint64
Member
- Joined
- May 29, 2008
- Messages
- 5
"I now return you to the regularly scheduled caliber war..."
Good one, lol! I used to be part of the Church of the .45 and believed, like many, that "all real pistol calibers start with a .4)...It frosted me to no end that everybody thought those wimpy 9X19s were 'machine pistols' or something and were so great...
Then a friend of mine pulled up the FBI wound data and it pretty much confirmed what many of you here have already posted and what I've read in numerous magazine articles: with today's expanding ammo, the difference between the 'Big 3' service calibers (9/40/.45) is pretty small, indeed.
That being said, were I the person approving a caliber in a PD situation I would not choose 9. The best 9mm loads do perform as effectively as higher caliber loads in many cases...but how would I know that when I possibly left the department that the person following me would choose Gold Dots or something and not choose a less effective load that the PD could simply get cheaper?
I would look at it from the standpoint of what the worst load in the caliber is able to do....and the worst 9mm loads have a bad reputation for stopping power.
Good one, lol! I used to be part of the Church of the .45 and believed, like many, that "all real pistol calibers start with a .4)...It frosted me to no end that everybody thought those wimpy 9X19s were 'machine pistols' or something and were so great...
Then a friend of mine pulled up the FBI wound data and it pretty much confirmed what many of you here have already posted and what I've read in numerous magazine articles: with today's expanding ammo, the difference between the 'Big 3' service calibers (9/40/.45) is pretty small, indeed.
That being said, were I the person approving a caliber in a PD situation I would not choose 9. The best 9mm loads do perform as effectively as higher caliber loads in many cases...but how would I know that when I possibly left the department that the person following me would choose Gold Dots or something and not choose a less effective load that the PD could simply get cheaper?
I would look at it from the standpoint of what the worst load in the caliber is able to do....and the worst 9mm loads have a bad reputation for stopping power.
WinchesterAA
Member
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2006
- Messages
- 870
What's wrong with FMJ? What's wrong with 45ACP?
Tired of people telling me I'm crazy only shooting FMJ.. I've killed a lot of deer with FMJ, a lot of rabbits, a lot of squirrels, and a few pigs... All of which have comparable or tougher skin than a human, so what gives?
Tired of people telling me I'm crazy only shooting FMJ.. I've killed a lot of deer with FMJ, a lot of rabbits, a lot of squirrels, and a few pigs... All of which have comparable or tougher skin than a human, so what gives?
bogie
Member
Ah, but bro...
Spraying and praying with a whole magajean (I had this Korean DI once...) equates to "overkill." And too damn many recruits think that all that they need to do is start flickin' the ol' boogerhook...
Well, I'm guessing you ain't in a whole lot of states I'm familiar with - Around here, FMJ for hunting means that game wardens suddenly own your rifle, your truck, and your first-born...
IMHO, what the departments OUGHT TO DO involves a nice .38 Smith & Wesson Model 10 with a 4" barrel, and a LOT of practice ammo. And tell Bubba Recruit that he has six rounds to make count.
Flynir,
As a result of another thread I carried out some tests yesterday by firing some 380Auto rounds through a simulated door. The simulation consisted of two pieces of plywood, one piece 1/2inch thick and one piece 3/4 inch thick with a 1 1/2 inch structural foam board backing. The assembly was placed against a soft clay bank. I consider this assembly tougher than the average wooden door.
The ammunition used was WWB with a metaplet, my own FMJ reloads and a commercial hollow point. Three rounds per cartridge were used.
Results were:
WWB penetrated clean through test boards. Penetrated an average of 4 inches into clay bank.
My reload penetrated clean through test boards. Penetrated an average of 6 inches into clay bank.
Commercial hollow point penetrated clean through test boards. Penetrated an average of 6 inches into clay bank.
The hollow points failed to expand due to accumulation of wood splinters in the cavity. Some flattening of lips of hollow point. No noticeable difference in effect of any bullet on test boards. All recovered bullets showed only minor deformation.
Conclusion.
Regular 380Auto round will easily penetrate a substantial door with an amount of energy remaining after penetration. Non scientific guess is that clay bank would provide about the same amount of resistance to bullet as soft human tissue. Simply cannot understand claims that a 380Auto bullet will fail to penetrate a skull.
As a result of another thread I carried out some tests yesterday by firing some 380Auto rounds through a simulated door. The simulation consisted of two pieces of plywood, one piece 1/2inch thick and one piece 3/4 inch thick with a 1 1/2 inch structural foam board backing. The assembly was placed against a soft clay bank. I consider this assembly tougher than the average wooden door.
The ammunition used was WWB with a metaplet, my own FMJ reloads and a commercial hollow point. Three rounds per cartridge were used.
Results were:
WWB penetrated clean through test boards. Penetrated an average of 4 inches into clay bank.
My reload penetrated clean through test boards. Penetrated an average of 6 inches into clay bank.
Commercial hollow point penetrated clean through test boards. Penetrated an average of 6 inches into clay bank.
The hollow points failed to expand due to accumulation of wood splinters in the cavity. Some flattening of lips of hollow point. No noticeable difference in effect of any bullet on test boards. All recovered bullets showed only minor deformation.
Conclusion.
Regular 380Auto round will easily penetrate a substantial door with an amount of energy remaining after penetration. Non scientific guess is that clay bank would provide about the same amount of resistance to bullet as soft human tissue. Simply cannot understand claims that a 380Auto bullet will fail to penetrate a skull.
I see this as a matter of 10 years into the life cycle of their current inventory someone is pushing for new pistols in the industry standard; 10 years being a common point for agencies to think about replacing pistol inventories and the .40 S&W, accounting for 70-75% of the US LEO market, being the indistry standard.
Budget allowing they'll probably get what they want.
Budget allowing they'll probably get what they want.
- Status